Episode 8

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Published on:

6th Feb 2025

Post Meh-ification

When algorithm flattens cultural markets, how to create against this backdrop? When everything is “meh,” winners are the surprising, the unexpected, and the different. The problem is, these things succeed in niches - offline communities, small groups, and subcultures. They are created in niches, and usually stay there. In the winners-take-all markets, scaling requires algorithms. Can brands bridge this dichotomy? What are the success stories of innovation in the meh world? Is it even financially possible for a brand to disrupt itself before someone else does? In this episode, Rei and I use once-innovative brands as examples of what happens when disruption goes analog.

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Transcript
Rei:

you're in Europe, yeah?

Ana:

I was in Europe.

Ana:

I went for a book launch in London.

Ana:

Then I went to Copenhagen Fashion Week and then I left to go skiing to St. Moritz.

Rei:

Oh, you went to some,

Ana:

I did, I did.

Ana:

So,

Rei:

You know, somewhere it's dear and near to my heart because, I went to high school in Switzerland.

Rei:

And every winter we would go to St. Moritz for two weeks.

Rei:

Oh, man, I'm, I'm jealous.

Ana:

that.

Ana:

It was amazing.

Ana:

you been up to?

Rei:

I was in Japan until last week.

Ana:

Oh,

Rei:

Yeah, I came back, middle of last week.

Rei:

I was there for about a week, week plus.

Rei:

And, yeah, and back

Rei:

Welcome to Hitmakers.

Rei:

How brands influence culture where every other week we explore culture influence and how brands created.

Ana:

I'm Ana Angelic, and I'm author of the book of the same name, Hitmakers, How Brands Influence Culture, but also The Business of Aspiration.

Ana:

And I'm also a brand executive and run a weekly newsletter, The Sociology of Business.

Ana:

Glad to have you here.

Ana:

Welcome.

Rei:

And I'm Rei Inamoto.

Rei:

I am a creative entrepreneur and I'm a founding partner of an global innovation firm called I&CO based in New York, Tokyo, and Singapore.

Ana:

And if you like this conversation, make sure that you read the rest of the previous seven episodes in this season one.

Ana:

And big thanks to our producer, Vanya, who takes care of us and our sound every other week.

Rei:

you just got back from London where you are promoting your book and that you were touring Europe.

Rei:

And then, I was at the same time I was in Japan.

Rei:

So, you know, I might be a little bit more jet lagged than you might be.

Ana:

I don't know.

Ana:

It's a it's it's I think you definitely are Asian jet lag.

Ana:

There is no such thing as a Asian.

Ana:

It's like a beast.

Ana:

It's a

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

It is a beast.

Ana:

I came back last night and I have to say London was a fantastic and big thanks to Cathy Chittercorn, who is now with CNN Style, previously with Financial Times, and to List.

Ana:

For hosting it.

Ana:

And then I was off to Copenhagen fashion week.

Ana:

And then again, big congrats to their team for putting together a sustainable fashion alternative and showing us that what brands can, can really do when sustainability is at their core.

Ana:

And then a mini break in St. Maurice for skiing.

Ana:

So yeah.

Ana:

And what have you been doing in Japan, Ray?

Rei:

I was there.

Rei:

I was there for work, pretty much exclusively for work.

Rei:

I was in Japan in November, last year and I hadn't been back.

Rei:

So I, you know, it had been quite a few months and I needed to see some of the clients that we work with, catch up with my team, you know, what was, what

Rei:

was, really good was, well, depending on how you look at it, but it was, Like negative, you know, five degrees here.

Rei:

and then Japan was the opposite.

Rei:

It was, yeah, it was very warm.

Rei:

I was surprised.

Rei:

I mean, you know, I'm wearing a scarf right now, in my office in New York.

Rei:

but like Japan was very warm.

Rei:

It was like spring weather, one of the week that I was there.

Ana:

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Rei:

It's probably not a good thing because it's just a sign of global warming, you know,

Ana:

Yeah.

Ana:

But you know what?

Ana:

It's really funny that you say that because, in, in Swiss Alps, where I was in, it was so much snow and it

Ana:

was minus 10 Celsius, which is like, I don't know,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

And it was like minus six, minus eight, and it never warmed up even when it was sunny to, for the snow to melt.

Rei:

Oh, wow.

Rei:

That's good.

Rei:

That's good.

Rei:

Good conditions to ski in.

Ana:

was challenging.

Ana:

This year was great.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Well, I'm jealous.

Rei:

I used to, I went to high school in Switzerland, so I'm, I'm jealous.

Ana:

need to come next time.

Ana:

Are you scared?

Rei:

I'm a big time skier.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I'm a big time skier.

Rei:

I mean, I haven't skied in a couple of years, but yeah, I mean, yeah, big time, big time,

Ana:

we have to go there

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

So Anna, what are we talking about?

Ana:

We're talking about Beth Bentley's guest post on Sociology of Business.

Ana:

I met Beth in person at least event two weeks ago and she has Her own brand consultancy and I saw that

Ana:

she mentioned me on her sub stack and I read it and I'm like, hey Do you want me to like depose this?

Ana:

And It really hit the nerve.

Ana:

So I think With the audience there were a lot of comments There were a lot of likes and I thought it timely for you and I to talk about what happens when algorithm And kind of like mimicry as is like, how, how,

Ana:

how do you create by design the cultural output that becomes the same and how that influences companies and brands and organizations and innovation in general?

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So basically just let me, let me summarize the way that I understood the article.

Rei:

and then, you know, everybody has, Anna mentioned, it's an article that, Anna's friend wrote.

Rei:

it's a quick read.

Rei:

It's a great read about how can you homogenic.

Rei:

The culture is, the culture is becoming because of algorithms and because algorithms encourage users to like certain things and encourage

Rei:

creators to create content that would quote unquote perform well, and they become somewhat templatized.

Rei:

They use the.

Rei:

Tunes, same rhythm, same type of content.

Rei:

even if it's in, you know, different, different interests, topics that everything start to become, I guess, in a way standardized, but it just becomes meh, right?

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And then starting with.

Rei:

the digital world, i. e. where you are consuming content that kind of bleeds into the real world, whether it's fashion or other things that people like, tend to cater to the algorithm

Rei:

so that everything starts to sort of become, you know, Average, and maybe, you know, the average might be a little bit higher than what it used to be.

Rei:

But, you know, if everything is kind of the same, then nothing really, really stands out.

Rei:

the first thought that I started to think about was, is this a cycle that we see,

Rei:

you know, how we go, how we gone through this cycle, in the past.

Rei:

And when, you know, digital, the internet started to be.

Rei:

I think that people could use the speed at which information spreads got really, really quick.

Rei:

And, and also because of digital technology, you could copy things, you know, more easily done, than in the past.

Rei:

And then that is now very exaggerated and very, heightened so that you can copy things more easily.

Rei:

You can follow quote, unquote, best practices, and then.

Rei:

You can create content that caters to what algorithm thinks we like.

Ana:

I'm really glad that you brought that up because I also wanted to say that this is not new.

Ana:

And that, at first, I mean, if you take a step back, it's inherent in human behavior that we are influenced.

Ana:

By others.

Ana:

So in a

Ana:

sense, there is always that social cohesion that's really important.

Ana:

So we look to what others do just to simplify decision making process.

Ana:

You can't figure out every morning the world anew, you know?

Ana:

So in a sense, we do need to imitate each other to keep the society going, to keep that social cohesion going, but also to simplify decision making process.

Ana:

So that's like human behavior overall, that imitation is just like a way we learn,

Rei:

hmm, mm

Ana:

you know, so that's number one.

Ana:

But then, when you really start having technology in the mix, when you think about like how different technologies starting with the printing press,

Rei:

mm

Ana:

gave rise to, like, literally the, the church pamphlets, you know, and then the nation states and national identity and so on.

Ana:

And it's not really random that Andy Warhol magazine,

Ana:

interview magazine,

Ana:

started when there was a tape, tape recorder, a set was invited, you could record it.

Ana:

you know, the interview and reproduce it and so on.

Ana:

So without going too like wide, I do think that there was always, technology always shapes how we imitate each other and what we really imitate.

Ana:

So now in a sense, as you said, is it a cycle?

Ana:

It's always on steroids and it's always like, even I think from YouTube from 20 years ago, people like figuring out what works, what doesn't work in this First 10, 20 seconds.

Ana:

What are you going to say?

Ana:

And then of course, Spotify and so on.

Ana:

So I think that you are right in the sense that it's technology makes everything flat, combines all the content together and makes it global.

Ana:

And that's why we have, this lack of innovation or creativity at such a large scale.

Rei:

I'm trying to think, again, just thinking back, to when, you know, when the internet started to become popular and when things became, more

Rei:

flat, as you mentioned, what are the triggers or what are the elements that can break the habit, so to speak?

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And things that I don't necessarily like the word viral, just because, you know, now everything is kind of viral and every, every creator is trying to make something viral.

Rei:

By copying certain templates and formulas that that other people have figured out about Instagram or, you know, Tick tock

Rei:

or what or have you, but I'm wondering what are the things that what are the factors that can break the habit?

Ana:

is not new.

Ana:

It's almost the backdrop.

Ana:

It's almost like this is the situation, so how are you innovating?

Ana:

How are you creative in that context?

Ana:

That's number one.

Ana:

Number two is In the context where everything is a copy of everything else, when you have formulas, I do think that people rebel, and

Ana:

people want the unexpected, the weird, the different, something that is going to stand out again.

Ana:

So it's not like, oh, this is a dire situation, everything is the same.

Ana:

Yes, of course, but it creates a context for new kinds of creativity that are unexpected.

Ana:

And so, so that is what is, what is the most relevant for me.

Ana:

What I'm excited in this conversation to hear your opinion is, what do you think?

Ana:

What is unexpected now?

Ana:

Because it is, people want raw, people need something that they, it's going to catch them from the left field.

Ana:

Hmm.

Rei:

topic that's related.

Rei:

And as we talk about this, and as we try to unpack what are the things that can break the habit, In the last year to two

Rei:

years or so, one of the biggest, brand stories that we've heard, was Nike kind of going, going down Nike stock dropping.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

And the, the main, failure of Nike as a company and as a cultural brand was that they catered too much to the quote unquote algorithm.

Rei:

And they started like literally printing.

Rei:

The same shoe, the dunks, the black and white dunks, the panda, panda dunks.

Rei:

And everybody started to wear that all of a sudden.

Rei:

And over the course of.

Rei:

a year.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

They're, you know, commerce, their sales went up, but then the real sneaker has the enthusiast, the real fans started, you know, to use, to use it, was rebelled against it.

Rei:

And then in like literally six months, they lost 30 percent of their stock price.

Rei:

What I was, I was, you know, reading the story and then I was having a conversation with somebody else and

Rei:

they talked about having gone through sort of a similar path in the recent past, but also in I think like in the.

Rei:

The late nineties and 2000 ish and what happened and this happened in Japan and UK around the same time, but, happened for slightly happened with slightly different audiences.

Rei:

So in the late nineties and early 2000, when that's when Burberry was scaling up very rapidly.

Rei:

And one of the hit items that they had was.

Rei:

A barber scoff with that, you know, traditional, the, the famous pattern.

Rei:

And they mass produced it and they lower the price, ju they lower the price just enough that non, wealthy people could buy it.

Rei:

And what happened in Japan?

Rei:

What, so, you know, it was like.

Rei:

Probably like, you know, 150 for a scarf, which say like a college student or even high school students could, ask their parents to buy.

Rei:

So in the late nineties, 2000 ish, what happened in Japan was that the Barbary scarf became massively popular with, high school girls, right?

Rei:

And the business for about 18 months was killing it because it was selling like glitchy, like hotcakes.

Rei:

Right, the same thing happened in the UK, but did you know who bought them in the UK?

Ana:

I know Tom.

Ana:

Yes.

Ana:

You know,

Ana:

Trouser, which is like, well, you don't want to be associated, like, I don't want to say that because, you know, everyone has, you know, their own taste,

Rei:

Yes.

Rei:

Yes.

Ana:

Burberry became associated with something uncool because it was very, it became popular with subcultures that they didn't want to be associated with, I guess.

Ana:

They were not aspirational

Rei:

Yeah, but these were specifically specifically you said that but specifically like Like working

Rei:

class, football fans and these fans, you know, working class fans started to wear Burberry scuffs.

Rei:

And I didn't know about it.

Rei:

I didn't know about it until I read it recently.

Rei:

But you know, this is like 20

Ana:

I knew about that because that was the undoing of Burberry in a sense that they had to reverse the trend.

Ana:

Not that they don't want to be associated with, but they didn't want to be associated specifically with that subculture.

Rei:

right, right, right, right.

Rei:

we talked about this, I think a couple of episodes ago about the, the perils of popularity.

Rei:

You know, when something becomes massively popular.

Rei:

The wave might be, you know, you might be riding high on the wave for a little while, but then crashing of the wave could be quite bad.

Rei:

And in some cases, catastrophic, like what happened to Nike in, you know, recently for three, four years, they, their business kept going up and up and up until to your point, somebody started to rebel.

Rei:

Hey, this is, this is bullshit.

Rei:

Like Nike is making mass producing, rare, exclusive sneakers so it's no longer rare or exclusive or, special.

Rei:

And he just loses that shine.

Ana:

It does, and you know what?

Ana:

I'm glad we're talking about this because that drives to the structure of markets, of cultural markets.

Ana:

So.

Rei:

Yeah, yeah, I'm packed up.

Rei:

Yeah,

Ana:

The cultural markets used to be something that when you can be surprised and you have new trends and, you know, like brands change how people dress, the music they listen to and so on.

Ana:

But now, they're very meh.

Ana:

They're very midway, very nothing.

Ana:

It's like incremental innovation.

Ana:

Then that means there is no, you're not going to go to mass market to find anything new.

Ana:

Because if you want innovation, if you want to be surprised, you need to go to niche.

Ana:

And by the very design that niche is never going to become mass

Ana:

because it's surprising, because it's unexpected, because it's anti algorithm.

Rei:

Right, right.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

So that is the nature of culture change so much.

Ana:

And this is again, not new that we have a lot of those different niches,

Ana:

but I think precisely because

Ana:

of algorithmic popularity

Rei:

Right,

Ana:

and on TikTok, anyone can become famous because of the algorithm.

Ana:

In theory, I think we are seeing in the resale markets, in the music markets, something that is very, IRL, in real life, and that by that very

Ana:

default is very niche because you get to, you get to experience something that you don't experience online.

Ana:

It's almost like Matrix, where you have you know, blue pill, red pill situation.

Ana:

And, you know, like, you know, I want to see the reality like that is.

Ana:

And I do like that.

Ana:

It's that how that culture is restructuring.

Ana:

So in a sense, if you're a Nike or what, like look at On, On running, which is, they've been around since 2010.

Ana:

The first time the, the, now the, the founder Olivier, there was like, there was his original partner, George, sent him a pair of Nike Pegasus.

Ana:

like, hoes, pieces of hoes, and, and Olivia was like, I can't run in this, I have to wait until, like, the sun goes down, so it's dark, so no one sees me.

Ana:

That's, like, literally the story, like, I can't be caught, like, alive in those, they're so, like, and the fact that, that, that was unexpected, that was different, that was not how, Shoes in 2010 were made.

Ana:

They were made in minimalistic shoes.

Ana:

They were, you know, that they didn't do like so much layering and they didn't do, so much cushioning and so on.

Ana:

So basically, but here, and I don't know, the a hundred, 200 meters in them, and they're like, oh my God, these are so different.

Ana:

And, but you need to have the balls to be like, they're, they were refused by all major.

Ana:

Nike said, we have, we have our innovation team.

Ana:

Thank you so much.

Ana:

You're the best.

Ana:

You know, Adidas, Puma saw them, but they were like, no, we are in minimalist design and so on.

Ana:

So none of the big ones wanted that.

Ana:

They're like, you know what?

Ana:

We're just going to make it ourselves.

Ana:

And you know, like, and in a sense that is, it's against the grain.

Ana:

Like you're going in a saturated market, the big players said no, it doesn't look like anything you've seen.

Ana:

That's that unexpected.

Ana:

That's that rebellion.

Ana:

And look at, look at them now.

Ana:

They're publicly traded company that they had Roger Federer put his Instagram, the shoes and like, can you make a tennis?

Ana:

And they're like, Hey, we can send you a gift.

Ana:

And then Roger was like, well, can we do something together?

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

Kind of like, but then again, it goes back to what we talked about before, which is.

Ana:

Product led branding and they were like our mission is to create the best running shoe in the world.

Ana:

Let's just make the best product in the world.

Ana:

They now move into training and do hiking and tennis and so on, but their motivation was never let's like, let's make some money.

Ana:

You know,

Rei:

Right, right, right,

Ana:

look at other brands that are basically like, Oh, we have a celebrity.

Ana:

Let's make a good enough product that everyone Is familiar with, we are just going to blast to the celebrity on it.

Ana:

We are going to do the DTC playbook and like run with it.

Ana:

Those guys were like, no, now when we, when we hear that something is impossible, we are going to do it.

Ana:

And on top of that, now the next challenge is how to create carbon neutral, not carbon neutral by buying the carbon credit,

Rei:

Hmm.

Ana:

How do you recycle?

Ana:

You're buying material, basically, when you buy a pair of shoes.

Ana:

So you send us that material, we turn it into like, sole and cushioning and so on, and you get a new pair.

Ana:

So I do think that, like, that's a great story, because it shows that there is a different way.

Rei:

yeah,

Ana:

Not just restructuring of cultural market, but also of your product market.

Rei:

I, uh, remember, in the last, recording we, the, the hit, the hit list segment that we had, and I mentioned about, squeaking.

Rei:

And I was like, man, you know, Anna just killed my, my pleasure.

Rei:

You know, that was like my, my pleasure at night.

Rei:

So you, you, by the way, you owe me a Netflix Netflix show.

Rei:

You have to recommend me a Netflix show to

Ana:

Oh, I'm happy to.

Ana:

I'm happy to.

Ana:

So wait, wait, wait, did you, did you finish?

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So, so yes, because like when, when two weeks ago I was only into like the end of episode two

Rei:

and there's like eight episodes.

Rei:

And not to give it away for the audience you know what?

Rei:

Like I wanted to like I liked it.

Rei:

I think enough to probably watch the next one Yeah, but I was highly disappointed at the end.

Ana:

What did I tell you?

Rei:

Yeah Like what like

Ana:

no.

Ana:

But I didn't tell you you're going to be disappointed.

Ana:

I said, well, keep watching.

Ana:

It's entertaining enough.

Rei:

it's

Rei:

entertaining enough.

Rei:

Yes

Ana:

not new because when we watched it first time around, we were surprised.

Ana:

That's definitely expensive.

Rei:

yeah, when they first, I'm, I'm, I'm speculating, but I think they, because it was the first time, you know, they just wanted to make a show that was different and that was surprising and unexpected.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

There was a cliffhanger at the end of the first season, but like, if you watch the whole series, the whole season, like that season was satisfying.

Rei:

It was very satisfying.

Rei:

Whereas, again, not to give it away too much, season two, like I wanted, I, again, I liked it enough and I will

Rei:

watch the next season, but it was quite obvious that they were doing, they were making this show to make money.

Ana:

It was, and I mean, I don't know if they wanted to make money, I don't know, I mean, there is always that, obviously.

Rei:

always that.

Rei:

Yeah,

Ana:

There is

Ana:

always, but they they have the same formula, and they innovated, and they're like, just like Nike.

Ana:

They're like, shit, this works so well.

Ana:

Let's do it again.

Rei:

I would say to be fair, though, I would say like I did like certain aspects of this season that tapped into a different side of, human psychology, slightly different, but not, you know,

Rei:

to your point, not different enough, you know, but a side of psychology that was, you know, That wasn't quite portrayed in the first season.

Rei:

And then, you know, I'm kind of geeking out of details of the, of the story, but again, I liked it enough, but like you can, you can smell the business behind it,

Rei:

you

Ana:

think that's like, why do you think that Hollywood in the past 10 years was all about sequels?

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Right.

Ana:

Fast and Furious 19, Mission Impossible 17, you know what I mean Avengers?

Ana:

Everything is a franchise and everything is a sequel.

Ana:

In a sense because of that it's, so that's why I don't want to blame technology because it's human nature.

Ana:

That

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

To imitate.

Ana:

designed in technology, in a way, because you know how, like, it's always like, oh, nobody knows anything.

Ana:

Like, you always want, you, with cultural products, they're super unpredictable because they depend on our taste and how we influence each other.

Ana:

So when the mood is right, anyone can start something.

Rei:

And I do, I do think that in the entertainment business and, you know, we're not, necessarily focusing on entertainment, but just on that tangent a bit, there are certain,

Rei:

entertainment franchises that I think have done sequel, uh, relatively well so like, the batman series and you know, they have had ups and downs.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

is better than Godfather 1.

Ana:

For

Ana:

example,

Rei:

godfather.

Rei:

Yeah

Ana:

it's kind of, it's not by default, but when you think about it, that was the time of risk taking the seventies in Hollywood and so on.

Ana:

What I was going with my examples is that we literally, they want entertainment, fashion, all music, art, culture, design, cultural industries.

Ana:

There was certainty.

Ana:

And that's why you always go towards what worked in the past.

Ana:

You believe it's going to work in the future.

Ana:

If you just tweak it a little bit.

Rei:

Yeah, yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

Because then you're certain and it works until it doesn't.

Ana:

It really does.

Ana:

It like in fashion, in music, it works until it doesn't, but you don't get anything risk taking unexpected and so on.

Rei:

some of the things that whether in you know fashion tech business, entertainment that have broken that habit recently.

Rei:

So like, you know, you talk about on, on was a company that broke the habit of the running industry and came out with a shoe that nobody wanted.

Rei:

And then look what happened, right?

Rei:

Do you, can you think of any other examples that, that managed to break that habit?

Ana:

Honestly, I think like when you look at like niche magazines,

Rei:

Oh,

Ana:

limited run, very, it's all about coffee culture or tennis or X, Y, Z, or, you know, like, I don't know, film or something like look at 824, for example.

Ana:

So I think they started as a very niche first distributor.

Ana:

And then a producer themselves, and they were supporting those movies that no one else would pick up, because they were too weird, too different, too XYZ.

Ana:

But they created an entire brand around that.

Ana:

So I would say 824 is a great example of something.

Ana:

But again, it's their niche in a sense that, I mean, they're in a, they're a big niche.

Ana:

But I think that's why I said the niches are really, because you have that also in fashion, you have that in design, just don't expect those to go mainstream.

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

I think on that note, companies that do well in innovating And coming up with new products are the ones that, the companies that try to disrupt themselves as opposed to be disrupted.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So I'm just thinking, say in gaming, like Sony, for instance, you know, they have PlayStation.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

PlayStation is an innovative product.

Rei:

but the game play hasn't, the way you use the console, the way you use the, the controller hasn't evolved in the past 25 years.

Rei:

It's the same thing, but it's better spec every time, you know, every couple of years when they release it.

Rei:

And, you know, they are like PlayStation, like six or whatever right now, but it's the feature upgrade.

Rei:

That you get with each, iteration, whereas, you know, I mentioned about Nintendo, I think in the last episode, where, what I appreciate and respect

Rei:

about them is that every five to seven, eight years or so, they try to invent and reinvent the gameplay from scratch.

Rei:

And that's how like.

Rei:

Nintendo Wii was born, you know, 15 years ago.

Rei:

That's how Nintendo Switch was born seven years ago and so forth.

Rei:

And then, you know, there's Nintendo, Nintendo Switch 2 now that I think is doing relatively well, but probably not as well as the first one because

Rei:

it's a sequel and it wasn't, it was, it's better in terms of performance and features and whatnot, but it's not different and it's not distinct.

Rei:

Enough from other things that are that's that's out there already.

Ana:

I love that.

Ana:

And honestly, Ray, I think there is, there is reality of business.

Ana:

That is basically like, you know, of course you should disrupt yourself before someone else disrupts you.

Ana:

That means that you stay in that startup mentality all the time.

Ana:

And that means that sometimes you don't make your numbers.

Ana:

And that means that some, that people are not gonna, that you're going to turn off certain audiences.

Ana:

And it's kind of like the opposite of that growth, growth, growth, growth, bigger, better, more, more people, bigger market, sort of a chunk of the market, bigger penetration more often and so on.

Ana:

So in a sense, if you want to remain risk taker, then you have to say, you need to be family owned.

Ana:

And you need to hit, you can't be like private equity.

Ana:

They want immediate results.

Ana:

Yo's they have shareholders to respond, you know?

Ana:

So it's very hard to justify in a sense.

Ana:

That's what we talked about before.

Ana:

When we said like, look, when I go to retail brands, like there were a lot of people who are creative, there are a lot of people, but that's not rewarded.

Rei:

Mm.

Ana:

Efficiency is rewarded.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

And performance, market performance is rewarded.

Ana:

So in that sense, look at Apple.

Ana:

Top brand in the world, trillion dollar brand.

Ana:

So on how they make money.

Ana:

They're banking on you losing those tiny iPod.

Ana:

And like, like I paid a hundred dollars for a new, like, that's how they make money these days, you know, like,

Rei:

Well, those dangles that you have to connect your new laptop with.

Ana:

or like they haven't created anything new since when,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

They haven't, I mean, there was a book a couple of years ago.

Rei:

I forget the name of the book, but it was critic critiquing Apple for the lack of creativity and innovation, you know, yeah,

Rei:

they've, you know, triple, they've grown like crazy since, Steve jobs are passing away, you know, more than a decade ago.

Rei:

But when you, when you look at the product innovation, you know,

Rei:

I mean, it's easy for me to critique,

Ana:

16.

Ana:

16. Now, like, I don't even know which number I have.

Ana:

I have like the one from last year.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

know what I mean?

Ana:

And I don't even know which number that is.

Ana:

I lost track and I'm not buying it because I'm like, Oh my God, I must have it.

Ana:

You remember like at the beginning when you're like, your mind was blown that you could like, anyway, the interface was

Ana:

insane.

Ana:

So now I'm just buying it.

Ana:

Oh, this one cracked or it doesn't.

Ana:

Now they're like, the way they're making money is that your, your, your MacBook airs, the battery doesn't last long.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And he may be, maybe, you know, the market's, mature enough, but, you know, particularly when it comes to say like

Rei:

the smartphone market, he may be mature enough for something else to come along finally, you know, it's being.

Rei:

What 15 years with the same

Rei:

15 plus years with the same form factor.

Ana:

But then look at the, at the same time, look at those glasses, like Meta glasses, Snapchat glasses.

Ana:

They were not exactly a success.

Rei:

I was, you know, so I don't know if you remember,

Ana:

remember,

Rei:

of my, one of my predictions for 2025.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I

Rei:

think some type of glasses, smart glasses, it may not be the next iPhone, but I think he will gain enough traction to be a, I think that the, the

Rei:

Ray Ban, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I The Ray Bans, slash Metaglasses are a surprise hit for them.

Rei:

You know, it's a better, hit than, Oculus that they had.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I, I think, I think he will, he will happen in the next, you know, hopefully in the next, in, in, in 2025.

Ana:

hope so too.

Ana:

But you know, this reminds me that not all innovation is good innovation in a sense, good, something that's going to be popular.

Rei:

true, true.

Ana:

When you said Oculus, for example, no one is going to walk around with that

Rei:

No, no.

Ana:

So, in a sense, that was, like, the conditions for true innovation.

Rei:

Mm.

Ana:

photography, like film, like iPhone, like, I don't know, Nike Air Jordans at the beginning, you know?

Ana:

That's how, it's a, it's a fine interplay,

Ana:

what happens with the right, it's, Mind organizational mindset, right?

Ana:

Organizational capabilities, right?

Ana:

Production capabilities, but also like reading the culture, being plugged in the culture, because think about it, Nike used to pay every game that Michael Jordan played

Ana:

red and blacks because it was an NBA allowed only white and

Rei:

right, right, right, right,

Ana:

They paid fine penalty for every game.

Ana:

Like You can't justify that when you're IPO company, you know what I mean?

Ana:

It's a, it's that rebellion mindset, the pirate mindset at the end of the day, when you're like, you know what?

Ana:

We don't care.

Ana:

We're just gonna, you just wear them.

Ana:

You just wear, it's marketing expense.

Rei:

So just to, to wrap up this portion of the conversation, where do you think there's an opportunity, like a specific opportunity for disruption or that rebellion?

Rei:

Like if you, if you had to, like if you were creating a new product or if you're creating a new idea, where do you think you would, you would bet, okay, this is where I think we can disrupt.

Ana:

Like, honestly, it's really hard to say

Ana:

only because the industries have become so big.

Ana:

And so winner takes all.

Ana:

When you have a few dominant players across the industries, look at music, look at design, look at art, look at movies, look at like any cultural industry.

Ana:

So I would say, while I don't know

Ana:

where, what is unexpected, new, I would say, look at niches, go small.

Ana:

Because I think new things happen all the time.

Ana:

We just don't know about it.

Ana:

Because they're staying among the local, the niche, the private.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

What do you think?

Rei:

in terms of the disruption opportunity, you know, I asked this question that I wasn't ready to answer it myself.

Rei:

I, I think this is a big industry, well, to, to the earlier point that I was making, the smartphone industry, you know, because for the past 15 to almost 20 years, we haven't seen.

Rei:

a drastic leap in terms of either the form factor or the software factor.

Rei:

It's been the iteration of the previous version getting better and better and better and better.

Rei:

And we haven't seen the iPhone or whatever the next thing is just yet.

Rei:

And When Apple announced, you know, Vision Pro two years ago, I think everybody was hoping that it would be like the iPhone moment for the smartphones, but it wasn't, it quite wasn't.

Rei:

And to my earlier point, some kind of eyewear, not a VR headset, like a goggle that you, you know, helmet that you put on,

Rei:

but a, a lighter, a pair of glasses with specific feature embedded into a pair of glasses.

Rei:

I think that's an opportunity that's already starting to, to happen.

Rei:

that's one like fairly niche territory that, that I can see.

Rei:

another, another, and I'm thinking more in terms of technology, but I think like voice as interface.

Rei:

I think it's, it's the next territory that it's, it's just at the level, at the, the point where, computers and software are smart enough to be able to understand the conversations in a natural way.

Rei:

It's not quite there.

Rei:

Like, you know, like I tried to talk to my phone or dictating to my phone and it's just still pretty, pretty, pretty aggravating.

Rei:

It's frustrating because it just doesn't, you know, accurately record what I, what I say and, and, and, and transcribe, but I think it's, it's getting there in the next, you know, six to 12 months or so.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So I, and then when that happens, I think voice as interface can change, certain things quite drastically.

Ana:

I don't, I don't disagree.

Ana:

I was just looking at the more macro level, but I really like that you brought it home.

Ana:

I just think anything that is human creativity, that is lo fi offline.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

It's not new, but you know, like a couple of years ago, there was a lot of those like lo fi, backyard concerts.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

have no idea what kind of innovation they came up with, what kind of new

Ana:

sound, you know, because Spotify is never going to bubble it up.

Rei:

No.

Rei:

No.

Ana:

You know, so that's why I'm kind of like, ooh, I really want to know.

Ana:

But we are sort of going back to the previous era when it took forever for information to travel from one side of the world.

Ana:

It traveled with people, and I love that in a

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I think, I think analog is, might be making a comeback.

Ana:

Oh my God, it's been making a comeback for a while now, but I think it's going to become global, like analog, you know?

Ana:

So I will have to go to Japan to bring what's cool in New York.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Right.

Ana:

cool in the sense of that meh, you know, like, eh, middle of the road, we know about that.

Ana:

But what is really cool.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Cool.

Rei:

Well, so, you know, just to summarize this, I would say my, summary of this conversation should be disrupt yourself before you getting disrupted.

Ana:

I know they, I like so many companies say that and want to do that.

Ana:

But like, like.

Ana:

I don't think it's just the reality of the business is there is no such thing as disruption budget.

Rei:

That's unfortunate, isn't it?

Rei:

But it's a, it's a, it is a reality.

Rei:

It's a reality.

Ana:

what I'm saying.

Ana:

Winner takes all.

Ana:

That's like how the market consolidated themselves.

Ana:

So you have to really stay really small.

Ana:

You know that on guys, before we go into hit list, on guys, they were like, Oh, we want to be a 10 million business.

Ana:

I mean, now they're like, I don't value that 7 billion, you

Rei:

yeah, yeah,

Ana:

that's just

Ana:

kind of there.

Ana:

They were like, no, we want to serve around it.

Ana:

That was

Ana:

before Roger.

Rei:

Right, right, They just had a very specific audience that they wanted to serve.

Rei:

And it was, that was what they wanted.

Rei:

And

Rei:

it happens That that was big enough.

Ana:

mindset when it's kind of, you know what, let's just serve our audience.

Ana:

And we are doing that for entrepreneurship and we are going to innovate for them.

Ana:

They're going to tell us what they want.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Shall we move to our hit list?

Ana:

Yeah, you go

Rei:

Do you have a, do you have a list?

Ana:

I never have a list, Rae.

Ana:

I see a

Ana:

zillion things that I think are going to be great for HitList, and then I never write them down in a project.

Rei:

really?

Rei:

Okay, I had a couple.

Rei:

Well, so the first one is, it's, it's old news by now, but like I was thinking about this a week and a half ago.

Rei:

I'm quite fascinated by what's, what deep, deep seek.

Rei:

He's doing?

Ana:

yeah.

Ana:

No, I read about it,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Did you, have you tried it?

Ana:

I have not tried it, but I also have thoughts about it, so go ahead.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

So I read about it for a few days and I didn't quite understand why it was such a big deal.

Ana:

Okay.

Rei:

And, you know, like New York times was saying this and, you know, Wall Street Journal, we were saying that

Rei:

and TechCrunch was saying this and all these reasons were completely logical, but they didn't quite explain to me.

Rei:

Why the app became number one in the app store

Rei:

and for something to be number one in the app store.

Rei:

It's just, it's just not the tech bros and, the, the analysts talking about it.

Rei:

Like it has to capture the imagination of the general public

Rei:

who, by the way, doesn't really care about, you know, the efficiency of the code or the cost effectiveness of, of the development costs and things like that.

Rei:

And.

Rei:

I, so I was like, why, what, what made this app so popular among the general public?

Rei:

And I think it's the same reason that made ChatGPT so popular two years ago.

Rei:

And if you use DeepSeek, the, the, the product innovation factor, the wow factor of the product is, it shows.

Rei:

The thinking process before it gives you an answer.

Rei:

And it's one of those things that I read it before and I didn't understand it until I used it.

Rei:

But when I used it, I was like, wow, this is, this feels like magic.

Rei:

And I, bet that was the, the, the element.

Rei:

Very tiny specific element, but it was magical enough that capture the imagination of the general public.

Ana:

Interesting.

Ana:

And you know why it's relevant for me is because DeepSeek did that after the ban of NVIDIA chips.

Ana:

So they didn't have access to the newest generations.

Ana:

And for that, for me, that was why it was relevant is that for the first time ever something creative came out of China, because Chinese are really good at doing, taking things and doing them better.

Rei:

make it Yeah, yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

they had to, like, they really understood how NVIDIA chips work.

Ana:

And they managed to create DeepSeek, even though they didn't have access to the latest generation or the most.

Ana:

So that is, I think it's just a moment in time because they're not going to catch up and so on.

Rei:

Mm hmm.

Ana:

But I, for me, that was relevant in a sense that was like, you know what?

Ana:

They, it was all local, all local.

Ana:

local talent, not

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

trained in the U. S. It was all, and they figured it out, how they can make something competitive with much inferior technology, so

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

So that's, I agree with you, and my hit is that, speaking of Burberry,

Rei:

Okay.

Ana:

is actually that they're making a comeback, believe it or not, because they're focusing on scarves and, well, they're not, and the outdoors.

Ana:

So they're doing amazing in the U. S.

Rei:

Oh interesting

Ana:

They released their results and they were much better than they expected.

Ana:

They expected a loss of, I don't know, minus 12.

Ana:

They expected a bigger loss than they had, which means they're crawling back and their product strategy is working.

Ana:

They're focusing on trench coats and scarves.

Rei:

Interesting.

Rei:

Interesting.

Ana:

So see, I have hits.

Ana:

It's all, they're all there.

Ana:

I just

Rei:

They're there.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I had actually one more.

Rei:

and it's something that I thought about while, while, while we were talking and you use the phrase, winner takes all.

Rei:

And there's actually a book that came out maybe about five, six years ago

Rei:

it's, it's not Winner Takes All, it's Winner's Take All.

Ana:

Okay.

Rei:

the subtitle is the Elite Charade of Changing the World, and it's written by a journalist named Anand Giri Dharadas,

Rei:

I believe he's an Indian American, journalist.

Rei:

I became a fan of him maybe about, I don't know, 10 years ago.

Rei:

And, I started to sort of, you know, read his writing and I read this book, yeah, like six, seven years ago, it came out in 2018.

Rei:

And basically.

Rei:

He, what he describes in that book manifested itself in 2024, 2025,

Rei:

when Trump got, sworn into, the, the, the president's, position and all these tech billionaires.

Rei:

Surrounding him with paychecks.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So he wrote this about seven, eight years ago, and now it's becoming reality.

Rei:

And I'm wondering like, okay, that was the sort of like the pattern

Rei:

that was repeating and rhyming.

Rei:

And, it's, it's kind of a good, I haven't read, but I started to reread this, just because it was interesting reading it seven years ago.

Rei:

And then seeing it unfold, in front of our eyes right now.

Ana:

I'm glad that you brought it up.

Ana:

I'll definitely take a look.

Rei:

Yeah, take a look.

Ana:

my hit is Siren Call.

Rei:

Oh, you know, yeah.

Ana:

I know, so like, yeah.

Ana:

So, I think like it's very related to everything we talked about in this

Ana:

episode in a sense

Ana:

about, Yeah.

Ana:

attention and how we manage it.

Ana:

And I think at some point, because attention is such a limited resource, I think we're just going to take it back.

Ana:

We're just going to, because you see the novelty of technology.

Ana:

It's something that we need to pay attention to, like, oh my God, like, like I always go back to that example, the first banner ad that had like

Ana:

90 percent click through or what, because you know, it was like, people are like, oh my God, what is this?

Ana:

And you know, it's kind of in psychology, there is this habituation.

Ana:

And I think like.

Ana:

We are getting habituated to this influx of information and I see that with with Gen Z How they're literally taking their

Ana:

attention back and reading books and you know, like going back to analog again So I would recommend Siren's Call as a book to

Rei:

I'm actually in the middle of, listening to it.

Ana:

Do you like it?

Rei:

So far so good.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I mean, I'm only into my first, chapter two.

Rei:

So, uh, don't tell me the ending.

Ana:

I learned my lesson

Rei:

I know.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So next, next time you have to tell me a Netflix show to, uh, to watch.

Ana:

have you watched Bad Sisters?

Ana:

season one was amazing.

Rei:

Passes?

Rei:

No, I haven't.

Ana:

well then

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

All

Ana:

is season one and two Slow Horses.

Ana:

Love, like, have you watched Slow Horses?

Ana:

Dude, you have to.

Ana:

So, with Gary, but

Rei:

All right.

Ana:

actually now they're on season four or something, so you have a lot of catching up to do with Gary Oldman.

Ana:

First, second, third, excellent.

Ana:

So you have some, you know, I have some tricks in my sleeve.

Rei:

all right.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

You, uh, you made up for my, uh, squid game massacre.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

So I think that's it, for this episode.

Rei:

And, this is it for Hitmakers.

Rei:

See you in two weeks.

Ana:

See you in two weeks and share this, like this.

Ana:

We love ratings, Spotify, Apple, YouTube.

Ana:

You can find us everywhere.

Ana:

Share with those who you think you like and please let us know what you think.

Ana:

Thank you very much.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Bye.

Ana:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
How Brands Influence Culture
Hitmakers is an exploration of cultural influence and how brands create it. Every two weeks, Ana Andjelic, a brand executive, and Rei Inamoto, a creative entrepreneur, talk about brands that made a dent in culture - through their product, aesthetics, content, business model, or technology - and unpack how they did it.

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Rei Inamoto