Episode 1

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Published on:

31st Oct 2024

Five Elements of Product-Led Branding

In this inaugural episode, Ana and Rei introduce the idea of product-led branding: what happens when a product is so good that it spins a brand out of it?

They discuss how products themselves—like Nike’s Moon Shoe and Levi’s 501 jeans—build brand identity through unique features and cultural appeal.

Five key elements of product-led branding are Value, Wear, Aesthetics, Narrative, and Fandom.

Ana and Rei also share their respective Hit Lists, a topic or item in culture that's occupying them at the moment.

Follow Ana here:

Newsletter "The Sociology of Business"

New book "Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture"

Follow Rei here:

Rei's LinkedIn

Newsletter "The Intersection"

Rei's global innovation firm I&CO

Transcript
Rei:

So Anna, here we are.

Ana:

Here we are, Rei.

Ana:

It took us only eight weeks, three days, and 17 hours to start this.

Ana:

Not too bad, honestly.

Ana:

No, no.

Ana:

It's only two coffees or something like that.

Ana:

But I'm excited to be here.

Rei:

Hi, this is Rei Inamoto.

Rei:

I am the founding partner of a company called I&CO.

Rei:

I'm based in New York, but we have offices in Tokyo and Singapore, and we are a brand innovation firm, working with brand and business leaders to help them navigate change.

Ana:

hi.

Ana:

I'm Ana Andjelic.

Ana:

I'm brand executive.

Ana:

I worked at the fashion luxury and lifestyle brands.

Ana:

Most recently, as chief brand officer at Banana Republic and Esprit.

Ana:

I have a book coming out called Hitmakers- How Brands Influence Culture.

Ana:

And write a weekly newsletter Sociology of Business.

Ana:

And as if one accent is not enough.

Ana:

Yeah.

Ana:

I have my friend Rei to compliment me with some Japanese one.

Rei:

that's right.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Between you, me and our producer Vanya, we,

Ana:

Oh, her accent is perfect.

Ana:

Come on.

Rei:

maximized the, the DI quota.

Ana:

That's the plan.

Ana:

So welcome to Hitmakers podcast with Ana and Rei.

Ana:

you can expect conversations about brands, products, strategy, creativity, and culture once a every two weeks for about half an hour of conversations ending up with deep insight.

Ana:

So take notes.

Rei:

Let's get to it.

Rei:

So the title of this podcast, you know, we bring you and I brainstormed quite a bit.

Rei:

We had a list of, I don't know, 50 different names and slightly different, different topics.

Rei:

But where we landed is Hit Makers, which by the way is your upcoming book, just to promote that a little bit as well.

Rei:

And the context of the, the title Hit Makers is how brands influence Culture.

Rei:

So do you wanna talk about, the reason why you started writing this book and why you are interested at the intersection of brands and culture?

Rei:

And business.

Ana:

I think that's a great way to start, but then I would also ask you, why did you like the title Hitmakers for, for this podcast?

Ana:

Because that's the one that we actually, that resonated with both of us, and it was not in the original, like, list.

Ana:

So the reason I called it, like, by the way, like, I am aware that Derek Thompson has a book called Hitmakers, but this is the, completely different topic.

Ana:

There is not nothing new under the sun, really.

Ana:

So it's how brands influence culture.

Ana:

The reason is that when I was a banana Republican is pretty, I started doing marketing strategy and creativity, creative output a little bit outside of traditional marketing strategies, which means that I started thinking, especially at this pre about.

Ana:

entertainment and show business and how that is structured.

Ana:

I know it's very popular to talk about entertainment, but honestly putting a 30 second spot on social is not entertainment.

Ana:

It's a 30 second, it's like, it's a commercial, you know?

Ana:

So it's not that.

Ana:

It was more about how to create one programming, cultural programming platform, which means basically how do you define cultural products, collaborations, merch, content.

Ana:

Ads after all events, experiences, exhibitions that are filtered to your brand's point of view.

Ana:

And how do you then operationalize it in a way that is unrolled throughout the entire year and where each of the cultural outputs amplifies the other one.

Ana:

And what does that mean in terms of media planning, which is usually done at the beginning of the year or six months in advance, at least to say, Hey, we are planning Q3.

Ana:

And what are we going to do in terms of media?

Ana:

This is more like looking in which context that those different cultural output like merge or collab or an exhibition or event or piece of content really performs well and using media to amplify it.

Ana:

And then execution that rollout plan, how to make sure that everything is connected,

Rei:

hmm.

Ana:

works and what does it mean organizationally, operationally and talent wise is.

Ana:

What I became very interested in.

Ana:

And that's what the book is about.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So the reason why I was interested in this topic, is perhaps coming at it from a slightly different perspective, which is when I grew up, I originally from Japan and I grew up in the eighties and nineties, I think brands occupied a larger part of the zeitgeist and larger.

Rei:

mental space of individuals.

Rei:

So just to, to give, give an example, Michael Jordan back in the eighties and nineties used to be such a, a massive, iconic figure that was associated with a brand, brand of Nike, right?

Rei:

And even though I was overseas, I was living in Japan.

Rei:

I remember having, and particularly my younger brother was a massive basketball and, and, Michael Jordan fan.

Rei:

So he had multiple posters.

Rei:

And then when I came to the U S for college, I really started to get into culture, but also I, I was mesmerized by the fact that brands were such strong drivers of culture.

Rei:

And then fast forward, this is in the 90s, right?

Rei:

Fast forward 20 years in 2024 now, that I wonder and question the relevance of brands.

Rei:

of brands in culture.

Rei:

At the same time, I think brands can and do occupy a certain, portion of the zeitgeist, but I think it's becoming increasingly difficult for brands to remain or become culturally relevant.

Rei:

So was my, my interest and my perspective.

Rei:

and, and partially because of what I do, which is to work with brand and business leaders, and it helped them navigate change.

Rei:

Helping brands be and stay relevant, is something that I do.

Rei:

sometimes from a marketing perspective, sometime from a technology perspective, sometime from a product perspective, you know, from different perspectives, but brands and organizations, staying relevant.

Rei:

And, and potentially influential in culture is an an ongoing interest of mine, especially because there are so many other forces in culture that are making it often difficult for brands to, to be, to be relevant in that space.

Ana:

yes.

Ana:

And, uh, I don't necessarily agree that brands are not as relevant in culture as they were is the problem is that like they rely on mass media and when mass media stopping as a model of.

Ana:

Influencing cultures stop being relevant.

Ana:

Then that, that, that sort of way of communication is not relevant.

Ana:

Brands are still relevant.

Ana:

However, we're talking, we're seeing like niche brands, micro brands, super targeted ones, smaller.

Ana:

So the influence and scale is not mass anymore.

Rei:

Mm-Hmm mm mm

Ana:

but some brands are very, very relevant in a lot of different communities.

Ana:

Some brands we never heard of.

Ana:

That's one way of saying it.

Ana:

The second is, I can also say, yeah, maybe they're not as relevant anymore.

Ana:

Maybe it's with online aggregators, maybe products are where things are at.

Ana:

And that's what we talk about, like, as product led branding, when a product itself delivers the aesthetics, the value, the quality.

Ana:

the narrative, the, the, the, it doesn't need any sort of wrapping.

Ana:

And basically that is what started Nike at the end of the day, which is the, the waffle shoe that allowed Nike to become a brand, to make all those sorts of different things.

Ana:

And you have the same with Levi's 501s.

Ana:

The innovation was those little rivulets or whatever his name, the, the, the, that were put on pockets to enforce them.

Ana:

And.

Ana:

Product innovation led to a brand and the brand was created through a lot of people wearing that product and participating in different cultural contexts.

Ana:

So you basically have their stories that make the brand.

Ana:

Whereas what you're saying in 80s and 90s, which is the golden age of Pepsi commercials, Coca Cola commercials, Nike commercials.

Ana:

It's all about creating a brand.

Ana:

happiness for Coca Cola or music for Pepsi, like creating some sort of an idea and then shoving products under that idea and thinking that that emotional association is.

Ana:

That's what the brand used to be, but I wonder if a brand can be like original brand.

Ana:

Brands are literally where, where, where marks on cows on other property to see, to signify belonging to someone, you know, to mark them together as, as, as a group of things.

Ana:

So it was literally original brands were literally guarantees of quality.

Ana:

I trust Rei.

Ana:

So when he puts a star, I know that's Rei approved, right?

Ana:

That's your branding.

Rei:

Yes.

Ana:

How many of those shirts do you have?

Ana:

Or is that the old one?

Rei:

I have multiple.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

We'll, we'll get to that.

Rei:

We'll get to that.

Rei:

How many, how many I have.

Rei:

But, so just to go deeper in today's topic, which you and I, discussed before, before recording this, that we'll talk about product led branding.

Rei:

would you say.

Rei:

That every brand starts with a product.

Ana:

No, it doesn't need to start with the product.

Ana:

I mean, like, look at those, like look Kylie cosmetics.

Ana:

Look at like, yes, you need to have a hero product, but that product doesn't need to be like markedly better than anything else.

Ana:

Like when you look like, or highly Bieber's role, she was like her best and most popular innovation is to have iPhone case for the lip balm.

Rei:

Oh

Ana:

But that's not even a beauty product.

Ana:

That's, that's a tech set accessory.

Ana:

So I would say, yes, you can have a, you can have a brand and you can just like, and even like, when you think about Glossier for example, where really Emily Weiss delivered was the content and community around her.

Ana:

beauty cosmetics products.

Ana:

But then when she started creating products, they were not a side of a boy brow.

Ana:

There were nothing to write home about,

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

you know, when you think about as the lauders of the world, or like if you stay with the beauty industry, they created a product that a lot of people used and that allows you, that's what we said about Nike, about Levi's, allows them to diversify in different categories.

Ana:

Today it's Agostinus Bader.

Ana:

It's that, that rich cream.

Ana:

That that they have that is like people are sparing by and then they introduce others.

Ana:

What do you think?

Rei:

I think that in the past, say 10 years, even 20 years ago, it was perhaps slightly easier to build a brand that wasn't dependent on a product or products.

Rei:

But I think in today's market that having a product is.

Rei:

More critical than it used to be.

Rei:

And in some cases, depending on different categories of business that we're talking about, products becomes the lead for the brand to exist and establish, right?

Rei:

So, so that's number one.

Rei:

Number two.

Rei:

I think like the examples that you mentioned, Nike with the waffle shoe or, Levi's with the 501s and so forth.

Rei:

Those are the early examples.

Rei:

of those brands and how they became popular before they became famous and before they became loved as a brand.

Rei:

So, to go back to my earlier point about Nike and Michael Jordan, way before that, there were the waffle shoes, and Nike Air Max that became sort of iconic representation of a brand.

Rei:

I, I would say in the case of Nike before Michael Jordan, they had a guy named Stiepley Hontagne who was a runner and he was the personification of the spirit of the brand, but the shoe that he wore and the other runners at the early on.

Rei:

but I think nowadays I think products, products do lead brands we can, we can also dig deeper into other than the product or products, how a brand is represented can influence.

Rei:

The brand's position within culture, right?

Rei:

So, so for instance, let me, and I'm going to use it as a completely different example, just as a, as a way of, discussion.

Rei:

So something like, open AI and chat GPT, right?

Rei:

Open AI existed as a company and quote unquote, as a brand several years before chat GPT and the chat GPT capability.

Rei:

Existed before November of 2020, 2022, November, 2022 is when it became a phenomenon because quote, unquote, the product, the chat interface, and the fact that you can type into it.

Rei:

And then it real time, it answers your question and you see, it's as if you're discussing with the computer that was the product and that became a sensation.

Rei:

And then people started to be aware of OpenAI as a quote unquote, as a brand.

Rei:

And then there's Sam Altman, who's the, the cheerleader, the flag bearer of the brand.

Rei:

the charge in the generative AI space.

Rei:

And there are other products like, Cloud from Anthropic, which is basically, A, started by the same people who are at OpenAI, and B, it has most of the capabilities Of, chat GPT and the capabilities on drastically different from chat GPT, but the, the mental space that open AI and chat GPT takes up in the cultural zeitgeist is way much bigger, way, way, way more dominant than say cloud and any other very similar, quote unquote products.

Ana:

But isn't it too soon to tell?

Ana:

Because it's been like, what, two years?

Ana:

GenGPT was just the first, you know?

Ana:

So I would give it a minute before to see if Claude or Proximity are gonna gain.

Ana:

But I see what you're saying.

Ana:

It's kind of brand made tangible or technology made tangible in a customer facing manner.

Ana:

In a way that customers can easily relate to, understand, use, and so on.

Ana:

So I understand that.

Ana:

So, but I also think that you can have absolutely brands.

Ana:

When I say without products, I don't mean you need to have something physical, or you need to have like experience, or you need to have a service.

Ana:

You need to have something that you're offering to some consumer proposition.

Ana:

But look at luxury.

Ana:

Luxury brands, especially fashion luxury brands, they're all marketing.

Ana:

They're all branding.

Ana:

It's not really craftsmanship.

Ana:

If you're making everything in China, Hermes is craftsmanship because they're made, they have like artisanal workshops and they're making it locally and they're smaller ones.

Ana:

Brunello, Cucinelli, for example, but majority of those brands, they don't have actually the product excellence that may have made the Louis Vuitton truck that was.

Ana:

The thing back in the day, because it was the first one that was made again, it was a product innovation that created the brand with Chanel as well.

Ana:

It was literally her artistic vision that, that, that created the, that changed how women dressed and that created the brand.

Ana:

But when you look like 30 years back or 40 years back, those were tiny little money losing endeavors.

Ana:

Because they were actually produced very laboriously and with the craftsmanship in mind.

Ana:

And how many you can create if humans are creating it, not gigantic factories and so on.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So on that note, luxury, I think is an interesting territory to, to talk about.

Rei:

and I, I want you to talk specifically about like the aspects of, of product led branding that, that, that you write, but before getting into the specifics, you know, you mentioned, Hermes.

Rei:

do you think that, I guess, how much of that, the power and the presence of a brand like Hermes comes from the real quality, real craftsmanship of the product that they, let's say, you know, say the Birkin bag, right?

Rei:

And yeah, of course there's the craftsmanship and the handmade quality that goes into the product versus.

Rei:

Whatever other brand that may not put as much resource or as much effort into creating a product, but tries to, to, to charge, where's the discrepancy?

Ana:

Well discrepancy, I think there is, first of all, if you don't have a brand, then you have artisans.

Ana:

And artisans, you know, when you go through Italy, they're like artisans who are making leather goods without having a brand.

Ana:

the thing is, like, one is having luxury brands, and the other is having artisanal products.

Ana:

And artisanal products and luxury products can be the same thing.

Ana:

If you use the same leather, if you use the same craftsmen, and so on, but you don't have a brand, you don't have cultural association, then you sell it as an artisanal product.

Ana:

You don't sell it as a luxury product, and the price is completely different.

Ana:

And what is the price is that soft power, the cultural relevance, cultural resonance, the story how Hermes Birkin was created and now it's on the exhibition.

Ana:

The first Birkin bag that someone owns is going to be an exhibition that was created and because Jane Birkin was the icon, the it girl of the 60s, 70s, so on.

Ana:

So you see, it's all those stories.

Ana:

Objects don't have emotional value unless they're touched literally by humans.

Ana:

Some personalities, some context, like you're say bidding for, for a pair of Nike Air Jordans.

Ana:

Do you, Abloh's collection, it's going to be completely different value and price than the one that was.

Ana:

Owned by a random high beast.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

So let, let me, break down these five elements, of product lead branding that you talk about, and I want to kind of stress test this, no pressure, no pressure, but

Ana:

You're gonna be stress testing it,

Rei:

yeah, between, between products that we just talked about, say like an LMS bag or a vintage And Levi's jacket, right?

Rei:

But also, I want to understand these elements more specifically in relation to say, products that I think have cultural influence, but may not have the heritage or history that you talked about.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

So just to lay this out, the five elements or five aspects of a product like branding, according to, to the writing that you've done.

Rei:

Number one, value.

Rei:

Number two, wear.

Rei:

Number three, aesthetics.

Rei:

Four, narrative.

Rei:

And five, fandom.

Rei:

Yeah?

Rei:

So if you, if we take, let's say, Birkin or jacket, can you quickly talk about what you mean by value, wear, aesthetics, narrative, and fandom?

Ana:

Absolutely.

Ana:

And then I want you to come up with a Different example, because like for example, like value of a Levi's jacket, it lasts so long.

Ana:

It's really well made because of the product innovation that was at the core of Levi's.

Ana:

So when you buy something on eBay, a jacket, you're buying it because it's still together.

Ana:

It didn't fall apart after 10 years.

Ana:

So that's the actually inherent product value, the quality, product quality.

Ana:

And that is something that luxury brands, you have to have that.

Ana:

That quality.

Ana:

The second one, when you hear, what is the second one?

Rei:

wear.

Rei:

So value, wear.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

think we talked about that.

Ana:

Aesthetics is that it's recognizable.

Ana:

So Levi's have a specific way that you recognize Levi's jacket aesthetically versus Wrangler jacket or diesel jacket and so on.

Ana:

So basically the product aesthetic is designed into a product.

Ana:

Some brands have like, for example, Birkin has this little clasp or Nike has its own like waffled, Maybe the, the, the soul or, or Gucci has double G and you know, like stuff that brand codes that are part of the, or, or maybe Burberry has, has, has, has check or, you know, so it's, it's, it's basically having a signature aesthetic.

Ana:

The third, the fourth one is narrative, which means what, what are the, what are the stories?

Ana:

So basically, that would be all the historical advertising that made Levi's what it is.

Ana:

Not just those subcultures of people who bought it and wear it.

Ana:

But you know how iconic they were?

Ana:

Like you still remember the one, That ad in Laundromat, which was now brought back with Beyoncé starring in it.

Ana:

But even print ads of Levi's were unbelievably memorable.

Ana:

So that was at a time that advertising was influencing culture to such a degree, mass media.

Ana:

that it really got embedded in people's minds as part of a cultural context for a product.

Ana:

So that's what I'm saying about what is the story around this, what context was created, cultural context.

Ana:

And the finally, fandom.

Ana:

There are people who have Collections of 1950 60 70s.

Ana:

So they know among themselves who are the dealers, who are the buyers, who are the sellers, what is the they know exactly to tell you what is the value of a certain pair versus another one.

Ana:

So that is important to have there.

Ana:

And I think that that is how people consume today.

Ana:

Although the brands may have not caught up yet.

Ana:

That's what we are seeing on TikTok.

Ana:

That's what we are seeing in in fan communities among Gen Z right now.

Rei:

One point that you made was product led branding is selling the wear, right?

Rei:

The wear is the, wear as in W E A R, something that you wear.

Rei:

The wear is the brand.

Rei:

What do you mean by the wear?

Ana:

It's who

Ana:

was this touched by Jane Birkin was the one who had the prototype.

Ana:

She wore a Birkin bag she landed her cultural cloud and her significant association, emotional charge to that specific product.

Ana:

So when you say, when you have.

Ana:

Doc Martens Birkenstocks were so uncool for like 100 years.

Ana:

They were worn in the 80s by German tourists and by hippies, you know.

Ana:

Then all of a sudden through a whims of fashion or by right people wearing them but also by the side guys being right.

Ana:

for them to sort of explode because the aesthetics of the culture, the comfort, the what, what, what, how people think about work versus leisure.

Ana:

How do they go about the, the moment?

Ana:

Like the same thing with sneakers.

Ana:

The moment like you had yuppies, you have like metrosexuals in the nineties and then all of a sudden, oh you can go to to work wearing a hoodie, you know?

Ana:

And that changed because the culture over pop culture really changed.

Ana:

So.

Ana:

Change of pop culture really allowed Birkenstocks to become cool, to collaborate with Dior and whatnot.

Ana:

You know, so I think it's kind of important to look, when I say about where, it's not just who wears them, That's like the least important thing.

Ana:

It's like What are the various stories that are embedded in culture and subcultures?

Ana:

Doc Martens were connected with punks.

Ana:

Levi's are connected with farmers first, but then in the 70s maybe with hippies.

Ana:

You know, you need to kind of have certain culture that gives to the story.

Ana:

product context.

Ana:

And that is that there.

Ana:

I'm not talking about me literally wearing a pair of 501s, although that may become relevant if I want to sell them on a secondary market and they're like artfully broken in.

Ana:

Like 10 years ago or 12 years ago, I bought an APC vintage pair of jeans.

Ana:

They clean them by putting it in fridge and they're worn in such a perfect way.

Ana:

that I paid I don't know how much more than I would have paid for a brand new pair.

Ana:

When you go online and you see signs of wear become those tattoo symbols.

Ana:

Go online, go to eBay, you'll see Levi's stuff jackets 501 so on for a hundred thousand dollars.

Ana:

Right, right, right, right.

Ana:

So people are buying the wear, they're not buying that pair of jeans.

Rei:

do you mean when you say where, is it synonymous with story?

Ana:

Well, it's synonymous with history.

Rei:

History.

Ana:

and Heritage because by there you are again, it, it's been touched by a specific context.

Ana:

It, it existed in a specific culture.

Ana:

If you buy a pair of levies from the sixties, what are you really buying?

Ana:

What are you buying?

Ana:

Rei

Rei:

Well, yeah, you're buying the history.

Rei:

To your point.

Ana:

the con, a cultural context and that emotional association, you are literally buying the heritage.

Ana:

You are buying the ve.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I have two products that I want to stress test.

Rei:

one is in the fashion, retail sector and the other one is the technology sector.

Rei:

So the

Ana:

Let's do technology, we already talked about fashion,

Rei:

techno.

Rei:

Okay.

Ana:

yeah, do technology.

Rei:

technology.

Rei:

the product that I was thinking of was either iPhone or AirPods.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

These, and then let me, so you know what, let's talk about the AirPods because that's much more specific and it's physically a very tiny product, but it's an enormous business and every audio, every audio equipment maker that I've dealt with either directly or that I know, they would love to have the kind of distribution reach and the dominance that AirPods as a product has, and it's not even Apple's main line of business.

Rei:

It's like a hobby, you know, like the main line of business is the iPhone, the, the, the laptop and other things.

Rei:

And, you know, this is just an accessory that they make, but the accessory is an enormous business that anybody would, would, dream to, to have.

Rei:

what I want to find out right in this conversation and probably, I mean, part of the, the purpose of this, this, this podcast is how do you, how does a brand deliberately.

Rei:

on purpose, strategically create a hit, a cultural hit, not an accident, but

Ana:

Well, they can't, you see, like they can't, what you can do is you could create a lot of different hits in a hope that one of them is going to become.

Ana:

So like Apple didn't lead with Airpods.

Ana:

They first built iTunes, then all of a sudden they were in the music business.

Ana:

Then they, they, they invented like, Oh, like unbundling from albums to, to songs, and then they created, they closed the

Rei:

And yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

you know what I mean?

Ana:

But if they were like, let's create.

Ana:

Airpods.

Ana:

I don't think that that conversation ever

Rei:

Interesting.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So just to go down this list, value where aesthetics, narrative and fandom value.

Rei:

I do think that it has a superior, functional feature, like the integration with, with other, Apple products, but to your

Ana:

Oh, you mean that it always connects with what it's not supposed to connect to?

Rei:

But like, you know, as opposed to a non Apple products like AirPods does do do a much better job of connecting to, you know, your iPhone or your laptop and what have you.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I also, I mean this kind of a tiny detail, having tried other, earphones, that AirPods actually do stay on.

Ana:

Oh,

Rei:

your ears more so than other products that I've, that I've tried.

Rei:

So I think there's some superiority.

Rei:

I don't necessarily think like the sound quality is that great, but it's good enough that I think people tolerate.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Tolerate.

Rei:

this, topic of where, or the, the context of the story,

Ana:

I don't think that applies to tech products.

Ana:

Because tech products have designed obsolescence.

Ana:

They always force you to buy, like, look, I, every two years I have to buy a new Mac because the battery dies.

Ana:

I think they want you to upgrade, and also it's kind of disgusting if you buy someone else's.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

So I think that doesn't, the VEAR doesn't apply actually to tech products.

Ana:

Like look, my, my phone has VEAR.

Ana:

Look, it's

Rei:

Right.

Ana:

But you know what, the only thing it does for me, I won't be able to swap it.

Ana:

I have to give it to my nephews because like I'm gonna I'm not gonna get any good price.

Ana:

Like, look, it's all cracked.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

So it's kind of the opposite.

Ana:

But I think that's for tech products.

Rei:

I was thinking like things like cars.

Rei:

I guess you could sell vintage cars, but you would have

Ana:

But that's like, right.

Ana:

Vintage Toyota versus vintage Porsche or Ferrari.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

It's not the same.

Ana:

However, I'm gonna say one thing.

Ana:

If this phone was owned by, I don't know, Noel Gallagher or something, then it would be, by that, because it was touched by a, like, then it would be a collectible, then it would have that enriched sort of value.

Ana:

So not anywhere, like it does, technology products can, if they were owned or they were used, like, I don't know, like to.

Ana:

To deliver some crazy news or for the last phone call before someone, you know, X, Y, Z, you know.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

call from the moon, the phone, that like, the first person on the moon called some, I mean commercial

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

But the next point aesthetic.

Rei:

I, I would push on this a bit.

Rei:

Aesthetics in terms of how good looking it is, how recognizable it is.

Rei:

Like, you know, in the, the Apple airports case, it's the white, yeah, the white pod case.

Rei:

And, this one, you know, it's very recognizable and it was rare, especially when it first came out, you know, even before AirPods, when it was the, the wired, earphones, the iconic nature of it.

Rei:

I think was, useful.

Rei:

I also do think in, in the case of more utility products, as opposed to, I think what you call it, like identity product versus functionality product, like AirPods are largely.

Rei:

Maybe 60, 70 percent is a functionality utility product.

Rei:

And then maybe 30 percent is an identity product.

Rei:

Whereas like a jacket is perhaps 70%, 60%, 70%, uh, an identity product.

Rei:

Versus a utility or functionality product.

Rei:

So I think the balance, like knowing the balance between what's for the, the buyers or the user's identity versus functionality, I think it plays into the facts.

Rei:

So for instance, the, the, the Nike example that, that we brought up, but a different Nike example, Nike Air Max.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

So the shoes with the air, air, bag in, in the sole, the first version of Nike Air wasn't, vis, the airbag wasn't visible.

Rei:

It was inside the, the outsole.

Rei:

So the airbag was, was invisible.

Rei:

So they had to do a lot of explanation in advertising to say that there's an airbag that was invented at nasa, and then that's why it gives.

Rei:

cushioning, right?

Rei:

And they actually try to sell Nike Air for seven years without that much success.

Rei:

But it was when the designer Tinker Hatfield decided to make a hole in the outsole so that you can see the airbag and then the innovation became visible.

Rei:

Right?

Rei:

So I think that the point about aesthetics, one dimension that I would add is in addition to the identity.

Rei:

Of the individual that is trying to represent.

Rei:

I think in a tech product or products that have utility or functionality.

Rei:

As a big part of its, feature making innovation visible and easily understandable, I think as part of this aesthetic is, is a really, really, key part.

Ana:

It is, that's what your chat GPT example was before.

Rei:

Very, very, so very

Ana:

very intuitive to use.

Ana:

It looked like a search box and it was,

Rei:

yeah, you know, I was the site site conversation, but I was talking to a startup founder, maybe about a year or so ago, and he started an AI company, maybe about.

Rei:

four or five years ago.

Rei:

And, and by the way, this person shall remain nameless, but he was claiming that he already had chat GPT, as a product in his company, his company.

Rei:

But he says the main, exactly.

Rei:

The main difference is, GPT, Like you see it typing out its answers real time, that text is animating in front of your eyes.

Rei:

this person that I was talking to says that that was the key differentiator that made the innovation, visible or part of the aesthetic.

Rei:

And he wasn't like just displaying the answer all at once, but he was typing out.

Rei:

So I think the additional layer that I would put into this topic of, of, of, of aesthetics is, innovation made visible.

Rei:

And understandable.

Ana:

does it have to be innovation?

Ana:

It can be like any mechanism that can, because you know what also, I would also say the reason why just GPT, those little, like, Oh, you know, when it's typing, it's working because that's how humans, text each other.

Ana:

You can see three dots, so it's kind of the context was already very familiar.

Rei:

the narrative part of this, five part product branding coming back to the iPod, the AirPods.

Ana:

I'm going to jump in really quickly because you remember the advertising of the original version, they were not airpods, like it was iconic advertising because it was like people, people were just silhouettes.

Ana:

And you could see just the product.

Ana:

And I think back then, they were not trying to create like funny, hot, you know, like spots with people dancing.

Ana:

It was literally just silhouette and this iconic thing.

Ana:

And it's like, you wear this one thing and you're already defined as cool as, I mean, we are talking back when Apple was like, you know, three steps ahead

Rei:

yeah,

Ana:

else.

Ana:

And important, like almost luxury good in culture.

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

So I think like in the case of a brand like Apple, which every marketer envies does benefit from having the history and the, the, the previous narrative.

Rei:

You know, leading up to it.

Rei:

It's not a new brand.

Rei:

It's, it's existed in

Ana:

it has a crazy, like, like innovator story and a comeback story.

Ana:

It has everything that culture responds to.

Ana:

Comeback story?

Ana:

Check.

Ana:

Like, asshole innovator?

Ana:

Check.

Ana:

You know, like, first computer, crazy innovation, ten steps ahead of everyone else.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

It just has so many of those, and even those iconic ads from the 80s.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

But why do you, why do you think that, so get, getting to the last point, the fandom, aspect, I mean, Steve Jobs has been gone for more than 10 years.

Rei:

You know,

Ana:

I know, do you know, like, what do you think of people who still quote Steve Jobs?

Rei:

it's, uh, it's getting tired.

Ana:

Getting tired, Brian and I were texting and we were like, who are those psychos?

Ana:

I

Rei:

Apple is a, is a case study that keeps

Ana:

mean, come on, I know, seriously?

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

All I have to say is wow.

Ana:

Yeah, anyway,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

But you know what?

Rei:

I think the next person to be quoted would be Sam Altman.

Rei:

Most likely.

Ana:

Really?

Ana:

Elon Musk, maybe.

Ana:

I

Rei:

I think Elon Musk is politically too, controversial has become controversial.

Ana:

Steve Jobs was not political, but he was controversial.

Rei:

He was controversial.

Rei:

But it wasn't, it wasn't, I don't think he was as, as, politically motivated.

Ana:

not.

Ana:

It was a simpler time.

Ana:

Well, anyway.

Ana:

So, yeah, going back to But, like, also there was a movie, there was the book, Walter Isaacson, you know what I mean?

Ana:

There was a myth making around this brand that is gonna carry it over.

Ana:

It's the most valuable brand in the world, still.

Ana:

Number one on Interbrand, you know?

Ana:

Like, so it's But that's all that myth making that happened in the past, whatever, 50 years, 40 years.

Ana:

Thanks.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

So to wrap up our conversation.

Rei:

we are going to share each a key takeaway from this conversation.

Rei:

So Anna, I know this was a, this is a topic that you've been deeply engaged and have been studying, but if you wanted to share one thing for the audience to take away, what would it be?

Ana:

To be that cultural influence can be reverse engineered and that product led branding can also be reverse engineered.

Ana:

Even if you're starting a brand now and a lot of new brands are actually doing this successfully.

Ana:

It's possible to add a narrative, create fandom, have a signature aesthetics, have a rare story, have a product value.

Ana:

You don't need to wait 100 years for all of that to be accumulated.

Ana:

It can be created, like Ralph invented his story, for example.

Ana:

Like a lot of, like, new brands, like even Rod, again, he, Hailey Bieber's, Brand.

Ana:

She's like super aesthetically consistent.

Ana:

She has really fun tone of voice.

Ana:

She has lines, like masses of fans.

Ana:

And it's all, everything is about like this vague idea of having like piged, glazed skin.

Ana:

So she has a pretty good idea in where she plays in terms of aesthetic landscape and, and, and, and brand tone.

Ana:

So she's probably reverse engineering most of those.

Ana:

Not necessarily product value, but hey, that tech accessory is super valuable.

Ana:

What about you, Rei?

Rei:

My.

Rei:

Summary would be a brand to have any cultural significance and relevance with the audience.

Rei:

I think it comes down to two things.

Rei:

One is the product.

Rei:

The other is the point of view that the brand has, the people who started the brand, the people who manage that brand and how that point of view is represented.

Rei:

So I think it comes down to product plus point of view, because without the point of view, it just becomes a, you know, the, yeah, commodity or just an artisanal product versus a larger product.

Rei:

So product and point of view.

Ana:

Cool, so what I'm obsessed with, I need to show you guys.

Ana:

It's like, formerly CEO of Abercrombie Fitch is accused of sex trafficking.

Ana:

I mean, talk about the brand challenge.

Rei:

Oh, I did not expect that.

Rei:

So that's your, that's your.

Rei:

Your

Ana:

it's just from today.

Ana:

Like, you need to ask me every day what's my, what's occupying my attention.

Rei:

Wow.

Rei:

Because I mean, Abercrombie Fitch is a brand that is making a bit of a comeback lately, isn't it?

Ana:

They have amazing product.

Ana:

They have amazing merchandising.

Ana:

So let's talk about that in the next episode.

Ana:

Let's focus on sex trafficking now.

Rei:

Sounds good.

Rei:

So did it just come out today?

Rei:

Oh, wow.

Rei:

I wonder by the time this episode comes out, where the story might be and how that might influence the, the brand and culture.

Ana:

Anna and Rei investigate.

Rei:

That's right.

Rei:

That's right.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

my hit list this week is, I randomly came across this product.

Rei:

I'm not a target audience, but it really caught my attention.

Rei:

it's, a company called Terrae, T E R R A E.

Rei:

It's a new company that's only been around for about four years, since 2020 or 2021.

Rei:

And they make active wear, workout wear.

Rei:

but the thing that I was captivated by was this, gym bag that came out of, Asia.

Terrae:

I designed this yoga bag and it was sold out in one hour.

Terrae:

the All Day Gym Bag has many pockets, high quality zips, is durable, capable, can pack many things able, and most importantly, machine washable.

Terrae:

To me, this is more than just a gym bag.

Rei:

it's a yoga bag that the found, one of the founders of this company designed, and it apparently sold out in like 36, 48 hours.

Ana:

Why?

Rei:

Um,

Ana:

That what I just saw.

Ana:

That sold in 36 hours.

Ana:

I don't know.

Rei:

yeah, like, like, you know, in a day or two, I don't know how many they made, you know, it's, it's probably a small, small batch and small run, but I'm curious.

Rei:

So this is sort of in contrast to the entire conversation that we had in that this company doesn't have any history yet.

Rei:

It's been around only for three or four years.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

It's not necessarily associated with anybody super famous.

Rei:

it doesn't have the cultural impact, but it managed to, and then, you know, granted that it's a pretty small brand and small batch.

Rei:

So selling out may not be as difficult as say other mass brands, but I'm kind of curious because this was such a product led.

Rei:

At least product less storytelling.

Rei:

And I'm curious if a company like this, where they might be in a year, two years, three years, and if they managed to build that myth of a

Ana:

Well, they'll have to.

Ana:

They need to build a brand because otherwise a competitor is going to show up, build a, Cheaper version or maybe third year version or something like that.

Ana:

That's the thing.

Ana:

Like everyone would be just like, who wants to deal with brands?

Ana:

Who wants to hire marketing departments?

Ana:

They're pain in the butt.

Ana:

You know, like they would just all be making products if there was not such an easy thing to imitate.

Ana:

And since they're like posted themselves on Instagram, they have initial fan group.

Ana:

But now they need to build a myth with that.

Ana:

They need to do a collaboration.

Ana:

They need to do a merge.

Ana:

They need to do a pop up experience and the marketing one on one.

Ana:

Come on, Rei, you can do better than this.

Rei:

What?

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Challenge accepted.

Rei:

Challenge accepted.

Ana:

I knew you would take it.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Anna, this is coming out on Halloween.

Ana:

Yes.

Rei:

are you dressing up or you're not a dresser?

Ana:

I'm not.

Ana:

I'm not.

Ana:

What about you?

Ana:

What about you?

Rei:

I, I'm not a dresser, but you know, I have kids and, my youngest one who's four is, dressing up as a race car driver.

Rei:

So that's, that's my, that's my Halloween

Ana:

I know.

Ana:

I know.

Ana:

Do you know, like, F1 has such cool stuff?

Rei:

Yes, he

Ana:

like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ana:

I'm so jealous.

Ana:

You gave me an idea.

Ana:

It's exciting because this episode drops on Halloween and I hope that sets the tone.

Ana:

For all the episodes to come so thank you for listening and see everyone again in mid November It

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About the Podcast

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
How Brands Influence Culture
Hitmakers is an exploration of cultural influence and how brands create it. Every two weeks, Ana Andjelic, a brand executive, and Rei Inamoto, a creative entrepreneur, talk about brands that made a dent in culture - through their product, aesthetics, content, business model, or technology - and unpack how they did it.

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Rei Inamoto