Episode 10

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Published on:

6th Mar 2025

How to Brand Technology

Some of the biggest global brands are tech companies (Apple, Google, Samsung, Nvidia), and in this episode, Rei and Ana explore the branding strategy behind technology. From myth-making to a seamless omnichannel experience to translating narratives into user interface, we are looking at how branding of tech is different.

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Transcript
Rei:

so what's new with me, I'm teaching a graduate course, at Cornell.

Rei:

I'm teaching branding to a bunch of MBAs and engineering students.

Rei:

I just finished my class.

Rei:

It was like a four hour lecture slash workshop.

Rei:

I'm glad to be, off of that.

Rei:

what's new with you?

Ana:

there's like a lot of things happening at the same time.

Ana:

I planned my Australia trip and stopping by Tokyo.

Ana:

but also he have a book pro here in New York on, April 3rd.

Ana:

again, hosted by list.

Ana:

but I'm also gonna have another one at Shopify, most likely, like, so there is

Ana:

a lot of, you know, parallel tracking and a lot of meetings and it's good.

Ana:

those meetings are outside of fashion, which is, even better.

Ana:

They're in entertainment.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah, yeah,

Ana:

Other stuff and so on.

Ana:

this year really felt like, you know, fast paced, Do you feel the same way or no?

Rei:

it feels like, you know, we just, welcome 2025 and then bru.

Rei:

It's already March.

Rei:

Welcome to Hitmakers, how Brands Influence Culture, where every other

Rei:

week we explore culture, influence and how brands can create it.

Ana:

I am Ana Andjelic.

Ana:

I'm a brand executive, an author, and I have PhD in sociology.

Ana:

And we are joined, by our producer, Vanja Arsenov, who every two weeks make sure that we look and sound great.

Rei:

And I'm Rei Inamoto.

Rei:

I'm a creative entrepreneur and founding partner of global

Rei:

innovation firm called I&CO, based in New York, Tokyo, and Singapore.

Ana:

In this episode, we are gonna talk about whether tech companies can become brands.

Ana:

I believe so, but let's unpack this topic.

Ana:

Ray, you go first.

Rei:

we floated this topic off and on in the past, several weeks

Rei:

or so, and there are certain tech brands that are very much in the.

Rei:

Sector.

Rei:

Sector and then, you know, I mean there are, there are different types of tech companies that are B2C, B2B or both.

Rei:

but you know, in the past 10, 15 years or so, the top companies, the top five to seven most influential

Rei:

companies in the world are one way or another tech companies starting with the likes of Google, apple, Microsoft.

Rei:

Meta and then more recently in the last few years, you know, companies like Nvidia, right?

Rei:

And they essentially, I think they, they're called the Mag Magnificent seven.

Rei:

They take up an enormous portion of the market, not just in the US but around the world.

Rei:

So they obviously have influence one way or another, but.

Rei:

At the same, I mean, there, there're companies like Apple that I've been a, a fanboy of for a long time.

Rei:

I've been a a Mac user since, you know, I graduated even in college I think,

Rei:

and I've sort of flirted with, you know, Android and, and, and now Mac products.

Rei:

But I've always come back to it.

Rei:

And Apple is sort of the symbolic tech brand that has managed to become a. But I, I question the same kind of whether I or

Rei:

people have the same kind of connection or identity with a, a tech brand with let's say Google or with Amazon or so forth.

Rei:

So the, the natural question was, what makes a tech company or tech brand, a tech, tech product, a brand?

Rei:

I mean, every, everything, you know, every company is a brand one way or

Rei:

another, but there's like a degree of, brand in each com, each of the companies.

Rei:

And I would argue that companies like, like a co, our company like Apple as a stronger brand that lets people

Rei:

identify with the Apple brand and an Apple products versus, Say a Google or Microsoft or even Amazon, and

Ana:

Why do you think that is?

Ana:

In your opinion, why do you think that is

Rei:

say in the past, right?

Rei:

Apple.

Rei:

Was a very active marketer and they spent a lot of effort and money on marketing.

Rei:

But, and then, you know, more recently, I think they do, but I think they've, Always being very focused

Rei:

on the quality of the product and the quality of the overall experience.

Rei:

Not just the, the physical aspect of it, but the software, the user experience, the ui, ux, the experiential aspect of it.

Rei:

And then I think another thing that they've been, they've managed to do in terms of how they show up in the world is.

Rei:

The success of, the Apple stores and how that's become part of the, the experience as well.

Rei:

You know, apple Store people might not be going there every week,

Rei:

but I mean, every Apple store is always failed with customers.

Rei:

Some of them might be buying products and some of them might be just hanging out.

Rei:

So I think they've been able to not only focus on the quality of the, the individual products.

Rei:

Also being able to, and being disciplined in curating a seamless experience from one product to the next product.

Rei:

you know, all the way to say the store.

Rei:

So it, it feels very cohesive, the whole brand experience.

Rei:

Whereas I think a lot of companies, That cohesion.

Rei:

I don't, I don't see with, let's say like with, say Microsoft or, Google to some extent in terms of

Rei:

like, you know, using tools, but they don't necessarily have the physical

Rei:

presence, the same level of physical presence, that presence that Apple has.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So I, I think that the curation, curation of, of customer touchpoints, quality and the seamlessness.

Ana:

I think that's great, but that's all execution.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

That's like, I think what Apple has is a myth.

Ana:

It's a myth.

Ana:

It's a myth of the founder who is a pirate.

Ana:

Don't join the army, be a pirate.

Rei:

Do you think?

Rei:

Do you think that they

Ana:

Originally.

Ana:

Thousand percent.

Ana:

Thousand percent, because it's kind of like a guy who is dropping acid, who is kicked out of his

Ana:

own company, who is quoted to this day, the meat of the founder.

Ana:

This is like literally like the stores where I say it's tactics.

Ana:

Yeah, this is all great, but that's table stakes.

Ana:

That's, that's imitable, like Samsung imitated those stores and so on.

Ana:

Originally, however, no one had that.

Ana:

Insanity in terms of a founder who is like, do you wanna sell like sugar, water?

Ana:

Do you wanna change the world?

Ana:

You know?

Ana:

And people identify with, with, with found, like with meat making figures.

Ana:

So it's almost, it was almost reli like religion.

Ana:

Now I'm not talking about, now I'm talking a generation ago.

Ana:

Like,

Rei:

no, that, yeah, that, that, yeah,

Ana:

terms of execution, absolutely.

Ana:

That's a great brand execution.

Ana:

No, to like the packaging, the smell, the like the, everything that, that's all.

Ana:

Other brands can imitate that and they do imitate that.

Ana:

What made Apple different is like Bill Gates doesn't have that story.

Rei:

On that myth, right, I, I agree in the pre, like my generation, our generation and maybe slightly younger,

Rei:

but our generation grew up with that myth and seeing Steve Jobs, you know, come

Rei:

back to Apple and rebuild, well, it was a dying company, dying brand, and you know.

Rei:

2000 ish, all the way till when he passed away, for a decade and a half or so.

Rei:

I think he was instrumental in not only driving the business, but creating the myth.

Rei:

And he was the myth.

Rei:

Right?

Rei:

So I agree with you, like with my gener, like with our generation, but like say somebody who's, you know, 25 years old.

Rei:

Who didn't grow?

Rei:

Do you think they buy into Apple because of the.

Ana:

It doesn't need to be conscious.

Ana:

All brands are stories.

Ana:

So in a sense, they, they are encountering Steve Jobs, they're encountering his quotes, they're encountering the design.

Ana:

Of course, if TikTok generation, they know they're buying Apple computers,

Ana:

they know it's your perception that one brand is cooler than the other.

Ana:

Why?

Ana:

You don't know?

Ana:

So why are kids still buying, apple more than Samsung in the us?

Ana:

No idea.

Ana:

It can be the myth, but it's certainly not because the store

Ana:

looks great and it's certainly not because of the 1984 advertising.

Rei:

definitely not.

Rei:

Definitely

Ana:

So you know what I mean?

Ana:

It's kind of like all of that sort of helps, but again, that's all execution.

Ana:

And if Apple Tomorrow really changed that and look.

Ana:

What I do think is that that meat needs to be perpetuated and so on.

Ana:

Apple hasn't innovated in forever.

Ana:

They make money on us losing your AirPods, you know, like that little case costs like a hundred bucks, you know,

Ana:

and you, you know, like they, they, you know, so in, in a sense, they're not in, they're not the same company.

Ana:

However, it takes like more than one generation for that meat to die down

Ana:

because looking like car brands for example, is you still, when you hear.

Ana:

Ford Motor Company or if you, if when you still hear Coca-Cola, even

Ana:

though you don't drink Coca-Cola at all, it means something.

Ana:

And that's the power of the brand.

Ana:

And that's all I'm trying to say is the power of the brand is that story, that myth at at the beginning because

Ana:

no one remembers Coca-Cola like heartwarming ads from 20 years ago.

Ana:

But it's like one thing builds upon the other in culture.

Rei:

Do you think, going back to the tech, tech, you know, tech company being a brand, Apple, other than the

Rei:

myth of the founder, what do you think is making Apple such a strong brand?

Ana:

But it's, it's not just the meat of the foundry, it's that positioning, which is going against the grain.

Ana:

Being a pirate, that's an outcast brand and people root for outcast brands.

Ana:

These are the those that disrupt the status quo.

Ana:

So when you look at the brand archetypes you have those who are, again, pirates who are

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

fighting against the established rules and norms and state of affairs, and people rule by that.

Ana:

That was Apple's the regional position.

Ana:

For whatever reason, they're still coasting on it 20 years later.

Rei:

Because I mean, you know, the think different ad that came out 25 years ago and millions of people may have

Rei:

watched it back then, but, millions if not billions of people have no idea.

Rei:

That was the, the positioning right.

Rei:

But what?

Rei:

What do you think?

Rei:

What do you think is keeping that alive one way or another?

Ana:

But I don't know if anyone, if, if anything is keeping the myth alive.

Ana:

I don't think so.

Ana:

I think what myth lives through that regional execution.

Ana:

That's what I'm saying is like Johnny and I have left that revolutionary design, the revolutionary interface,

Ana:

the ux, everything you talked about, that's from generation ago.

Ana:

That's from 25 years ago.

Ana:

Now they're making money, now they're hosting on that.

Ana:

There has not been a significant innovation in Apple since, I don't know, you tell me.

Rei:

Apple Watch.

Rei:

Apple Watch probably was the

Rei:

the last,

Ana:

even remember.

Ana:

That is at least, it's more than 10 years.

Ana:

It's probably 15 years.

Ana:

So

Ana:

it's not enough.

Ana:

It's a short time.

Ana:

It's, you know, so they'll be able to coast for a really long time.

Ana:

And it's not like that innovation happened anywhere else.

Ana:

That groundbreaking innovation.

Ana:

It was like Microsoft and Apple had personal computers.

Ana:

Then Steve Job Revolution, uh, is the.

Ana:

mobile devices in a sense.

Ana:

Not so much with iPad, more with an iPhone, and that was the

Ana:

groundbreaking innovation that is completely reorganized, how people use.

Ana:

So that's number one.

Ana:

Nothing happened since then.

Ana:

No matter where from Huawei, Samsung, forget it.

Ana:

They have better cameras.

Ana:

Okay, great.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

So now it's incremental innovation.

Ana:

That innovation is also what the brand is that comes from that pilot positioning.

Rei:

I see what you're saying and I agree with what you are saying to an extent, especially for people

Rei:

who have seen the aspect of Apple, that was the, the pirate, you know, the, you know, the think different.

Rei:

Challenger positioning that they had 20, 20, almost 25 years ago.

Rei:

What I, what I would question is, and, and, and I guess what I was saying

Rei:

earlier about the execution of the brand what's kept the brand at that level of.

Rei:

Brand equity is that like they've been able to execute at a pretty high level, you know, they, they, their quality.

Rei:

I mean, to be honest, yeah.

Rei:

The, the quality of the products have slipped a little bit and you know, like you, like you said, the,

Rei:

the, the innovation, we haven't seen groundbreaking innovation in the past 10, 15 years, if not more.

Rei:

But, The, the, the execution of the, and the, the curation of the product expense, has been at a high level, at a

Rei:

high, at, at high quality that I think the execution has kind of carried the, the brand over the past 10 years because

Rei:

I don't think, I don't think there's been any new, new myth that, that's

Rei:

created it, that that's,

Ana:

I'm saying.

Ana:

They're coasting and however they wanna coast that they haven't changed Apple stores, they haven't changed anything.

Ana:

So I think we are agreeing.

Ana:

I don't understand your point,

Rei:

No, because I say, you said, oh, just execution.

Rei:

But I, what I'm saying is that,

Ana:

there is no ingenuity in that execution.

Ana:

It used to be when it was groundbreaking and new, but now it's just incremental innovation.

Ana:

iPhone with a camera Stores look the same.

Ana:

They looked 15 years ago.

Ana:

There is no, there is no innovation there.

Ana:

So I don't under like, I don't understand why you like it's,

Rei:

yeah, but what, what I'm saying, I think what I'm saying, is that the, the, the level of execution is quite high.

Rei:

Is very high even though it's sequential and, incremental.

Rei:

Like there, there, there hasn't been new groundbreaking innovation, but they're coasting at a.

Rei:

High to differentiate.

Rei:

So I don't, I don't think, I don't, what, I guess what I'm disagreeing is that I don't think

Rei:

other brands are able to execute at that level, and that's what keeps,

Ana:

I don't agree.

Ana:

Look at Google.

Ana:

Look at Amazon.

Ana:

Look at Samsung.

Rei:

you think, okay.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

Okay, so, so on that point, on that point though, like, do you

Rei:

think Amazon or Google has the same cache as a brand, as Apple

Ana:

no, but I don't have a meet.

Ana:

That's what I'm telling you.

Ana:

But Amazon is delivering everything today or tomorrow.

Ana:

The customer convenience is their core brand promise.

Ana:

They're doing it impeccably.

Rei:

yeah, yeah.

Rei:

So, so I guess, again, again, trying to unpack this topic, right?

Rei:

Like, how can a how can a tech company become a brand?

Rei:

So you are saying that Apple is a strong brand because of the myth and the, the previous innovation,

Ana:

I say differentiated brand, it's a, it's a differentiated brand because of the myth.

Ana:

Strength of its brand is a number of factors.

Ana:

It's sales, its products, it is experience, it's so on above.

Ana:

It's a trillion dollar brand,

Rei:

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rei:

I mean, it's the most value brand.

Ana:

What I'm saying, I don't know if people are buying Apple

Ana:

as they did before, because it was different than Microsoft.

Ana:

If you bought, if you bought a Mac product, you signal that you are more creative than suits buy Microsoft.

Ana:

So that meant something.

Ana:

That was the strength of the brand.

Ana:

Now you buy those products out of habit, convenience.

Ana:

Everyone else has it, so on.

Ana:

I'm not buying these products because I just don't wanna deal with like, comparing I like phones or, or whatever.

Ana:

I don't wanna deal, I don't know if some other computer is better.

Ana:

They're probably the same at this point.

Rei:

So convenience, not because.

Ana:

I, not exactly like I cannot, like if some, I don't think it's cool.

Ana:

It's just there.

Ana:

It's utility.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

But, but again, like you are buying it purely out of convenience, not

Rei:

because Apple product is, or Apple laptop is better than a, a Microsoft.

Ana:

I'm buying it because I'm used to buy, I'm, I'm being a loyal customer.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And then like the, but like, again, like the execution of, of, of the, of the, the

Rei:

user expense hasn't been so bad that it hasn't made you switch to something else.

Ana:

It hasn't been bad, but it hasn't been great.

Ana:

I mean, it's been like, I don't care about it.

Ana:

You know?

Ana:

That's not my, like, it, it's not going to decide.

Ana:

Oh, that's definitely.

Ana:

I'm gonna buy it because I'm gonna get it the same afternoon.

Ana:

That's not my decision making factor.

Rei:

yeah, yeah,

Ana:

making factories, all my stuff is on iCloud.

Ana:

I'm locked in.

Ana:

It's switching costs are too high at this point, like when I buy new stuff, it's all automatic.

Ana:

Like all my data is there.

Ana:

Why would I deal with anything else?

Ana:

That's how they're making money today.

Ana:

And I do think that it's nice that they have the genius, but I don't disagree that the execution is important.

Ana:

But I'm trying to distinguish what is easy to imitate, what?

Ana:

It's not easy to imitate.

Rei:

I, I think where our disagreement might be that I don't think execution is actually that.

Ana:

You don't think that Genius bar can be replicated?

Rei:

I, what I'm, what I, I think it can be like in points, but like the, the, the holistic, you know,

Rei:

integration of every, like, they do everything at a fairly high level

Ana:

Have you been in Europe, in Samsung stores is the same.

Rei:

but again, I'm not talking about just the store, I'm talking about the store, that ui, the service and everything.

Ana:

The interface is great.

Ana:

The phones are great.

Ana:

Samsung is more popular in Europe than iPhone.

Ana:

So that's what I'm saying.

Ana:

It's also like you do have that seamlessness on that level as well.

Ana:

People who love Android that they, they just have the same lock in and same switching cause dilemmas we do here.

Rei:

so I mean, I've actually switched to a Samsung form, this is, you know, five or six years ago.

Rei:

Just as a way to experiment, you know, is this a better, product or better experience?

Rei:

And I found, and again, this was, you know, five or six years ago,

Rei:

so it's been, been a little while, but I found the expense to be so.

Rei:

Disjointed and so frustrating and, you know, maybe 'cause I was so

Rei:

used to that, the Apple universe that I, that, that I came back.

Rei:

And on top of that, I would say, and this might sound shallow, but

Rei:

you know, little things like green bubble versus the blue bubble,

Ana:

you're a designer, Ray.

Ana:

You are a

Ana:

designer.

Rei:

I know, but, so I.

Rei:

I mean, at least from what I'm gathering in, in terms of what you're saying,

Rei:

that the executions are easy to limitate but cannot, is what you're saying,

Ana:

The origin story, you can't, every, every brand has an origin story or doesn't.

Ana:

And some of them hit culture.

Ana:

Some of them really resonate emotionally with people and with

Ana:

those archetypes that we love in terms of narratives and storytelling.

Ana:

And then I don't think, like, look.

Ana:

Obviously Apple creates a fantastic ecosystem.

Ana:

I'm not gonna argue with that.

Ana:

I'm just saying that if they had, if, if, if they had that without Steve Jobs, without the origin

Ana:

story, without be a pirate, without insane innovation, no one has seen interactive interface before iPhone.

Ana:

I mean, I'm exaggerating.

Ana:

Of course there were.

Ana:

But in terms of like that completely, they killed.

Ana:

Feature phones completely, and that has not have, that's what builds the brand.

Ana:

And then wonderful execution obviously is important.

Ana:

If this was, if, if, if, like even com Apple computers, they last two years now tops because battery dies

Ana:

because that's designed obsolescence, they wanted to keep buying.

Ana:

Even that is not enough to piss me off.

Ana:

What I'm saying, it's not ideal.

Ana:

You change, like, look, my phone is all like, you know, like you, you change your phones every year.

Ana:

You change.

Ana:

That's not, they want you to buy more.

Ana:

So like in, in, in a, in a sense, this is not the perfect product.

Ana:

This is not the

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

But, but so on that, on that point though, like, are you using, apple products purely, purely out of.

Rei:

Of switching to a different ecosystem or is there, another, reason, you know,

Rei:

perception, reason that you think you are influence to, to hang onto iPhone?

Ana:

so I don't think, it'll like if I live here, if I lived in Europe, I would probably do Samsung or some

Ana:

like, it's, it's kind of like the cameras are really amazing on Samsung.

Ana:

Well, you know, and because they're everywhere and they advertise to you.

Ana:

Some exposed to like market being marketed too.

Ana:

Here I simply don't pay attention because it, it, the other thing, it's not important to me once having an iPhone

Ana:

was a status symbol versus, you know, in the first generation sec and then having a new iPhone was, was a status symbol.

Ana:

And then having a unique drop in a specific color metallic or gold or whatnot was a status symbol.

Ana:

But now we are past all of that.

Ana:

Now it's utility.

Ana:

I don't buy it as a status symbol.

Ana:

I buy it as utility.

Ana:

No one is gonna ask me, oh, you have a new iPhone?

Ana:

No one, not me.

Ana:

I don't think that, no, anyone is asking anyone, oh, you have a new iPhone

Rei:

Well, because I mean, you know, we had like up, up to iPhone 16, there's 16 different versions and then, you know, 16.

Rei:

16. So like, there's probably like different versions of the iPhone.

Rei:

So a new iPhone, I mean, every has a new iPhone one way or another.

Ana:

Right.

Ana:

But that's, that's what I'm saying.

Ana:

That's what you asked me.

Ana:

Like, does that influence my thinking?

Ana:

No, honestly, it's just pure convenience because I know when I buy a new one, like I'll just switch

Ana:

it off, I'll connect it and it's gonna every, it is gonna be the same.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Do you, do you think then projecting out, let's say 10 years from now

Rei:

that like if he was, if Apple became a pure utility player.

Rei:

Doesn't that make them more, vulnerable in terms of a Samsung or somebody else

Rei:

taking, not completely taking over, but at least, taking away their business?

Ana:

I think that already happened

Rei:

You think so?

Rei:

I guess, yeah.

Rei:

Some, yeah, to some extent.

Ana:

I mean, with Samsung, with Huawei, like there were, there was a moment, probably not 10 years, but at

Ana:

least five years or something, when they cleaned the house completely.

Ana:

And then they were like, oh, Samsung made it, the Huawei made it.

Ana:

And you know, in different markets, apple is not number one.

Ana:

Like iPhone is not number one, or Apple products are not number one.

Ana:

So that already, that already

Rei:

What, what company, what, what tech company do you think outside

Rei:

of, say, apple or Samsung, what tech company do you think has a strong brand?

Ana:

Well, I do think there are like a lot of smaller ones.

Ana:

And then we can talk about, because I recently wrote about mascots and toys.

Ana:

So you see, like remember back in the day there was Ask Js search

Ana:

engine, like remember that?

Ana:

And it was like it was almost GT before judge GBT was like invented.

Ana:

I

Ana:

mean, reason people didn't use it because it was a horrible search engine because you tried to combine like

Ana:

human curation, you know, and then Google was like, get outta the way, our algorithm is better than yours, you know?

Ana:

So, but that was kind of a try like way to, to kind of humanize the brand.

Ana:

So I do think like that MailChimp.

Ana:

Again, they, they're like those brands that are trying to, like Duolingo.

Ana:

You have MailChimp.

Ana:

You can, you have like Slack to an extent in a, you have Hootsuite,

Ana:

you know, like they have like those little mascots that assume the

Ana:

lives of their own, you know, and they use those mascots to live in the world.

Ana:

But then in a sense that that brand.

Ana:

Character brand image is separate from the utility, however, by the sheer emotional association is, this is very

Ana:

different than what you said about how, apple build a brand to experience.

Ana:

They're building a brand, they are trying to tell a story through character, the product has almost nothing to do with that

Rei:

Right, right, right,

Ana:

You know, which is very different you're saying, but the products are amazing.

Ana:

I like little green button.

Ana:

I like the store experience.

Ana:

I like integration here.

Ana:

It doesn't matter.

Ana:

Here is all about, oh, the character is funny.

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

Almost the, the humor that the, the, fantasy of the,

Rei:

the

Ana:

are telling the story through a character and the world that's

Ana:

built around that character and tone of voice and personality.

Ana:

It's completely different way of brand building.

Rei:

Do, do you an interest?

Rei:

I mean, we talked about this, you know, I think couple episodes ago, because it's one of the few tech, I mean, it is a

Rei:

tech brand, but in the past couple years or so, they've been able to create, I haven't say dent, but People pay attention

Rei:

to them, you know, beyond the tactical, practical learning aspect of a language.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And then the, the, the character is a useful device to sort of, you know, pers have fun with it, I guess.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So you mentioned, lingo, you mentioned the MailChimp, ask Jeeps from like 25 years ago.

Ana:

MailChimp, but they're still going strong.

Ana:

They're still, you know, into that.

Ana:

There is also Slack, but Slack has more or less, they do have like UX and little design kind of details and tone of voice.

Ana:

But again, this is all.

Ana:

Kind of you penetrate cultural, like for example, what Du Lingo did with their ads, with the super wallet,

Ana:

with the TikTok videos through that humor of the character, you know, and that's, that's how you compete.

Ana:

But like for, I'll give you another example.

Ana:

Open ai, had this super,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

so, and that's a mistake because.

Ana:

Users of AI are all, the promise of AI is also super vague right now in,

Ana:

in particular, user scenarios.

Ana:

You know, people are not sure, you know, like where is it gonna take them?

Ana:

How to use it there, you know, there is, there's specific use scenarios, but the promise is much bigger than that.

Ana:

And when you have a vague product, vague experience and a vague ad doesn't help

Rei:

Yeah, it was very vague.

Rei:

Yeah, Yeah.

Rei:

it was quite, quite lofty.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

It wasn't specific and it wasn't, I mean, I know the people who worked on it, so I, I wanna be respectful.

Rei:

But yeah, it was, it was,

Rei:

no, no, no.

Rei:

Again, I, I wanna be respectful to the people that,

Ana:

Well, I'm just saying like, forget about the actual product.

Ana:

I'm just saying like, you have to have a very specific promise because again, if you go to the execution of what you, you

Ana:

know, the consistent experience you think of you, you have a certain expectation.

Ana:

You know, so if, if that expectation, if you're setting vague expectations, then deliveries, you know, the same.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Do you, do you think, tools and platforms like, meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, are those brands

Rei:

or are we just using them just because of convenience and sheer scale?

Ana:

Well, math is definitely like a. A sort of a villain right now, you know, and it's been for a long time, but it's

Ana:

been in a long time due to execution of hate speech, of lack of moderation, in comments of like an algorithm of

Ana:

basically popping up, like creating bubbles, polarization, and so on.

Ana:

So that's again, the user experience, the execution of the promise connect all

Ana:

the people in the world, whatever his promise was, was horrible, is horrible.

Ana:

It's not good for, for human society, for human brain, for interaction, psychology and so on.

Ana:

So in that sense you have like evil brands, you know,

Ana:

but again, it's, it's, it's, it's based on, on the actual experience of the brand and then on the founder being like.

Ana:

Who he is, you know,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I guess his myth is, you know, is a lot of mu energy.

Ana:

a lot of masculine energy these days, you know,

Ana:

but he never had, like what his founding story as told in social

Ana:

network was that he stole from, like that's your founding story.

Ana:

What tells where do you go from there?

Rei:

Yeah, it's not, it's not a very good, I mean, it's a.

Ana:

Well, it's, you know, and, but there is not also, you are not like this, this memorable character.

Ana:

It's, it's not a myth.

Ana:

You're not a myth figure.

Ana:

People are gonna forget about you, like, you know,

Rei:

Yeah, yeah.

Rei:

Speak.

Rei:

Speaking of a character, a tech brand character, the one that I

Rei:

wouldn't have expected this company to have this much, clout is Nvidia.

Rei:

Because Nvidia, like, I mean, they've been around for 20 years or something and they were just making

Rei:

chips, these computer graphic chips and people don't care about chips.

Rei:

But in the recent few years, really the last four years, three, four years.

Rei:

They being able to consume so much of the attention of the business tech world.

Rei:

And part of it is the founder being quite visible.

Rei:

You know, he's gotta look.

Rei:

You know, he wears a leather jacket and you know, he's probably not as charismatic or as, known as Elon Musk or even Joe

Rei:

Bizos, but he's one of the more visible CEOs, who by the way seems to be decent.

Rei:

You know, I don't know about him much about him, but I think that his

Rei:

presence is definitely more visible than a lot of other tech CEOs.

Rei:

And for something as mundane and as boring.

Rei:

A computer chip or Nvidia and even the name of the company is kind of hard to pronounce and you know, you don't

Rei:

really know how to, how to read it when you see it, but it's, it's interesting

Rei:

how they've been able to, gain so much attention in the past couple years.

Ana:

I don't think that's because of chips.

Ana:

I think it's because of the artificial intelligence.

Ana:

And again, myth making around this is the cr, the crux for artificial

Rei:

no, no.

Rei:

That, that, that's what I'm saying.

Rei:

Like, it's not, it's, it's very little to do with like the, the functionality or like the feature of the chips that

Rei:

they're making, but it's, you know, they've been able to ride the AI.

Rei:

conversation, you know, they used to be a computer graphics chipmaker, and then when AI came, they've been able

Rei:

to position that they were, that they became the AI chipmaker, what, what used to be a, a computer graphics chipmaker.

Rei:

and on top of that, I think having a CEO, that's who seems to be

Rei:

more vi

Ana:

like, no, I just think they're at the right time, at the right place without competition.

Ana:

That's it.

Ana:

Because the narrative around artificial intelligence is such a no one else.

Ana:

I mean, their stories, again, a story of an underdog who becomes a top dog because Intel the biggest chip maker in the

Ana:

world was.

Ana:

Upset by a pirate again, or by a outlaw, by an underdog.

Ana:

And that is again, the narrative that resonates really well.

Ana:

Who is this Nvidia company?

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

And then it helps.

Ana:

We have a good founder,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And I, I think in their case, I think they were probably lucky.

Rei:

I don't think they were strategic about, about it.

Ana:

that's what I'm saying, right place, right time, right Narrative, you know, like but good for them.

Ana:

They're like what?

Ana:

Whatever their stock

Rei:

And it just so happens that, that the other chip maker, you

Rei:

know, they were the king and they just didn't get into the field.

Rei:

And then, Nvidia just, ate that piece of the pie and then that pie became so much bigger than, than the rest of the pie.

Ana:

Well, right, but there were, again, there were that underdog that recognized the opportunity and intel.

Ana:

This like always David versus Goliath story.

Ana:

And that's why the recent Chinese one was, was also people love the underdog stories.

Ana:

People root for underdogs.

Ana:

So whenever you have one count on people supporting them.

Ana:

It is just the way it's, so

Rei:

just to summarize it, the, the story of an underdog.

Rei:

Is a powerful device, whether it's, you know, a computer brand or a chip brand, or fashion brand or whatever,

Rei:

or you know, like this Chinese brand, the company that nobody had heard of, but it was one company, one small

Rei:

air company that, that came out of nowhere and, they had good enough product, at least for the short term.

Rei:

That it was good enough to capture enough audience to, I mean, they were,

Rei:

for several weeks, they were the number one, downloading app in the app store.

Rei:

So become an under, be an underdog and see the moment.

Rei:

That would be my, my, my, my summary.

Ana:

Cool.

Ana:

All right.

Ana:

What's your, what are your hits?

Rei:

My, so completely unrelated to the, the, the conversation that we just had, two.

Rei:

This is very sort of industry insider speak.

Rei:

So, you know, half of the people who might listen to this podcast might not know what I'm talking about.

Rei:

and it's very within the context of the creative advertising industry.

Rei:

So BBDO, you know, one of the longstanding, traditional agencies

Rei:

just recently repositioned themselves, or at least.

Rei:

The way they present themselves.

Rei:

they are still an advertising agency, but they came up with this positioning that says, do big things.

Rei:

And they sort of, you know, had a, a visual campaign to go along with it.

Rei:

they changed their website.

Rei:

they created these, you know, assets for social media.

Rei:

And I, I didn't think much of it at.

Rei:

What I'm sort of intrigued by is, I, I've never seen an ad agency employee a, a group of ad agency employees

Rei:

being enthusiastic about the rebrand of their company to the extent that, the BBDO people might be right now.

Rei:

And like, I'm, I, I saw around me and I, you know, because I'm in that sector, I see quite a bit of it.

Rei:

It's the first time in a long time that there's, quite a bit of hype around it now.

Rei:

You know, it may be a hype, it may be just, it may be gone soon, but it was unusual that an agency,

Rei:

repositioning effort, I heard as much as I did about this one in the recent

Ana:

I I didn't hear a damn thing about, I didn't think about

Rei:

no, again, like I think it's a very sort of like.

Rei:

Secluded thing, you know, in my bubble.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And you know, like now we all live in different bubbles, right?

Rei:

And, you know, you have your bubble, I have my bubble, and those bubbles might not, intersect, with each other.

Rei:

But yeah, I, I guess, I guess sort of the larger

Ana:

Is it interesting?

Ana:

Why is it interesting that an agency position itself at a time where agencies are dying and they need to do something

Ana:

to survive, they're getting scaled down, so I think this is just like, they're like hyping themselves up.

Ana:

I don't, why is that interesting to you?

Ana:

I, I don't understand.

Rei:

No.

Rei:

So it was interesting.

Rei:

Exactly for that reason.

Rei:

That I didn't, I didn't think of, I didn't think much of it when I saw it, but I, I saw people talking about it unexpectedly

Ana:

People who work at bbb, DU, or others.

Rei:

around others.

Rei:

Others as well, at least in my bubble.

Rei:

And is, is that because.

Rei:

Because some, you know, people are resonating with it, or is it because it's kind of like a little blip in, to

Rei:

your point, you know, in an industry that's struggling and, you know, trying to, you know, is it an underdog story?

Ana:

Well, I'm really happy for them because there is so little fun things

Ana:

happening in advertising industry that if this is not exciting, then

Rei:

was, it was unusual.

Rei:

Like, like at this time I found it

Ana:

cool.

Ana:

Right.

Ana:

my hit would be that I've seen like a lot more, maybe I'm biased, but like

Ana:

on Monday there was a Burberry, an iconic brand that brought back it's.

Ana:

Symbol of overnight,

Ana:

and they literally used it in their campaign.

Ana:

They used it on their fashion show.

Ana:

So what I'm thinking is, thanks to ai, that the modern cultural expression is going towards more real and imaginary.

Ana:

Combining and that is exactly the result of sort of bubbles and of the fact that like, I don't think that

Ana:

anymore, the time, you know how in the time there is future, there is

Ana:

present, there is past, and we are always, there is always progress.

Ana:

And I just think that this gigantic flattening there is chronological flattening.

Ana:

With archivy issues with like bringing back, movie sequels, movie reboots movie, sort of franchises and then

Ana:

also redoing a lot of things from the past, really upset that chronology.

Ana:

So all of a sudden you have, I don't know, Ghostbusters from like two years ago is the Ghostbusters from 40 years ago.

Ana:

They're in the same sort of level.

Rei:

I see, I see.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

Or what you have in terms of, gimme an example.

Ana:

What would be an example of a movie that's gonna be this summer that is a reboot or of, of something that happened before?

Ana:

Sequel prequel, no matter.

Rei:

Gosh, I can't think of any specific one, but I'm sure

Ana:

See you.

Ana:

You sure there are many.

Ana:

There are either equals or sequels or there are.

Ana:

So in that sense, that's kind of that insanity that I think that we are all operating, not because

Ana:

of nostalgia or anything else, that's just the marketing ploy at

Ana:

this point,

Ana:

but I think it's the, the creative expression just uses the much wider range.

Ana:

Of tools in a sense that you can have, like you take stuff from imagination.

Ana:

Like, you know, like the night, the night is, is very connected, what we talked about, like Duolingo mascot,

Ana:

you have a Burberry knight, jostling knight from females 50 years ago, that's all of a sudden came to life

Ana:

and then you hear people taking photo with it, photos with it at the fashion show, you have it in the ad.

Ana:

So I think it's a lot of that kind of like.

Ana:

Lego Lego sets for adults.

Ana:

I think it's a lot of that imagination, that game, that play that is now getting more into into our storytelling.

Rei:

I, I know, I know the Knight mascot or the Knight symbol, the recent sort of in incarnation or

Rei:

the revival of the, the Knight or animating, you know, making it move.

Rei:

you know, that, that didn't intersect into my world or into my bubble.

Rei:

I haven't seen it.

Rei:

so I'll definitely look it up.

Ana:

Look at that, but you've seen Elmo at and on.

Ana:

You've seen that with Rogers.

Ana:

But that's the same thing.

Ana:

All of a sudden you have a character that is imagined character from

Ana:

sesame, like coming in and telling a story and like, oh, soft touch.

Ana:

Be soft on yourself.

Ana:

Or Roger Federer.

Ana:

You don't know who, that's the same thing.

Ana:

Forget about your like,

Rei:

But are you, are you talking about, are you talking about your, you, are you talking about like,

Rei:

something that exists in different times, coexisting in the same time?

Rei:

Or are you talking about, something that's imaginary versus something that's real coexisting?

Rei:

You're talking about

Ana:

I think the operating system is imaginary.

Ana:

So now Feder is sitting with a like Elmo, and Elmo goes on a podcast

Ana:

and Elmo goes and tells runners, why don't you go easy on yourselves?

Ana:

It's cartoon character.

Ana:

From childhood that like, and I, I just think it's kind of like showing a trend towards mascots and

Ana:

imaginary things being influencers because they can't be canceled.

Ana:

They don't get old

Rei:

yeah, yeah,

Ana:

and that is the reason of that cultural expression is widening up.

Ana:

They're taking things from our childhoods because of that time compression.

Rei:

I

Ana:

just thought it was not clear.

Ana:

See more of that.

Ana:

That's what I find.

Rei:

I, yeah.

Rei:

I wonder if that trend will expand, beyond, beyond what we see now.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

I'll, I'll, I'll pay attention to that.

Ana:

Just pay attention.

Ana:

It doesn't need to be, forget about fashion, but like, I think

Ana:

on, especially with their Super Bowl ad, and they really do,

Ana:

like double down on Elmo because Elmo won, went on a podcast like

Ana:

they had a follow

Ana:

up and I don't think they're gonna let that.

Ana:

One really go and I think we are gonna see more because you see, like we had the Barbie movie, we are gonna, we are

Ana:

having, I don't know, I think 13 new movies are in development from Mattel.

Ana:

So I think toys are among us because

Ana:

with ai, you

Ana:

know what's real, what's not real, anything is real.

Ana:

So pay attention, you'll see more of that.

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

Characters and mascots or toys and mascots in real world.

Rei:

your friends.

Ana:

imaginary friends like Duolingo, you know, like

Ana:

they're probably gonna bring it in the real world with like ai, or not ai.

Ana:

I don't

Rei:

probably.

Rei:

Cool.

Ana:

Thanks everyone for listening.

Ana:

and thanks Ray for being such an amazing, sparring partner.

Rei:

Even though we have disagreements,

Ana:

We have to, it'll be so boring without you.

Ana:

I mean, I don't know anyone.

Ana:

I would rather have disagreements with.

Rei:

That means a lot.

Ana:

Okay.

Ana:

Have a good weekend everyone.

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About the Podcast

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
How Brands Influence Culture
Hitmakers is an exploration of cultural influence and how brands create it. Every two weeks, Ana Andjelic, a brand executive, and Rei Inamoto, a creative entrepreneur, talk about brands that made a dent in culture - through their product, aesthetics, content, business model, or technology - and unpack how they did it.

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Rei Inamoto