Episode 11

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Published on:

20th Mar 2025

The State Of Play

Demi Moore has a house for her doll collection. David Beckham relaxes by assembling Lego kits. Board games are the preferred Saturday night pastime. Selling toys to adults is a big business, and in this episode, Rei and Ana unpack the reasons behind bag charms, AFOLs (Adult Fans of Lego) and popularity of brand mascots. Rather than seeing these trends as mere nostalgia, we suggest that consumers are increasingly comfortable with the blurred lines between reality and imagination, spurred by AI.

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Transcript
Rei:

my mom is, she's quite a British

Ana:

What about yourself?

Ana:

I can't tell.

Rei:

I, I mean, I'm one eighth.

Rei:

You know, so I'm still, I'm pretty watered down.

Rei:

Welcome to Hitmakers, how Brands Influence Culture, where every other week we explore culture, influence and how brands created.

Ana:

I'm Ana Andjelic.

Ana:

I'm a brand executive author and doctor of sociology.

Ana:

I write a newsletter, sociology of Business, and I'm accompanied here by.

Rei:

I'm Rei Inamoto.

Rei:

I'm a creative entrepreneur and I'm a founding partner of a global

Rei:

innovation firm called I&CO based in New York, Tokyo and Singapore.

Ana:

And you guys cannot see her, but our producer, Vanja Arsenov

Ana:

is also always here, making sure that we look and sound great.

Rei:

Great.

Rei:

So we are talking about toys and mascots, aren't we?

Ana:

Let's do it.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

Games, toys.

Rei:

an interesting article recently in your speaking of your newsletter, the sociology of business, Peter Pan Effect.

Rei:

And I'm familiar with the Peter Pan syndrome and, I remember Peter Pan

Rei:

Syndrome as a term when I was a, when, when I was a kid in Japan in the nineties.

Rei:

And I looked up actually, and the term Peter Pan Syndrome was coined by a psychologist, about grownup man.

Rei:

Particularly, this is, it specifically said grownup man who refuse to grow up, grow up.

Rei:

So I assume that, you know, you took Peter Pan effect from peanut pine syndrome, but tell, tell us about

Rei:

what you mean by Peter upon effect and what you observe is happening with

Rei:

toys, mascots, and other, I guess kids items, but in the, the world or brands.

Ana:

Absolutely, and I'm really glad you brought Peter Penn effect

Ana:

because it is a term from, from psychology and in addition to.

Ana:

The nineties, meaning there was not, I think every 20 years.

Ana:

As with all trends, it sort of happens that there was a gigantic, I think it was New York Magazine, New York

Ana:

Times article maybe in the late two thousands that were, that was talking

Ana:

about how Gen X doesn't wanna grow up, and then it was about millennials.

Ana:

So I think every generation sort of like.

Ana:

Goes through the Peter Pan phase.

Ana:

So now what I do think is I was not interested in like, oh, the world is scary, or we are nostalgic,

Ana:

or we have anxiety and you know, you just wanna withdraw into your comfort of your childhood.

Ana:

No, I was looking for more the business and brand perspective, and

Ana:

especially from brand perspective, which is why would you as a brand.

Ana:

Associate yourself with a mascot.

Ana:

Invent a mascot, do board games or do toys even if you are not Lego.

Ana:

Because a big part of my article is adult fans of Lego and how it's a big business.

Ana:

And so one thing is brands that are not in the toys business

Ana:

associating themselves with maco, like on did with Elmo, for example.

Ana:

And then the other part of that is how toy brands, because they're less and less

Ana:

children in the world, are reorienting themselves to marketing to adults.

Ana:

So what are.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Well, so I happen to come from a culture, Japanese culture, which is very comfortable with the idea of

Rei:

toys and these fictional, imaginary friends being part of, culture.

Rei:

So, I mean, you know, growing up in Japan in the eighties, Anime wasn't as big it is now globally.

Rei:

It was a, a very much isolated cultural IP in Japan.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

And, but a lot of the cartoons and anime depict, some of the anime were like realistic stories depicted as an enemies,

Rei:

but also some of the, those stories were the coexistence between real people.

Rei:

And fictional characters.

Rei:

So for instance, and I don't know if you, if you know this, this an called, which is

Ana:

Ah, the dog, digital

Rei:

cat,

Ana:

Ah, cat.

Rei:

So, so just for the context of the audience, Duron is this massive, massive

Rei:

franchise in, in Japan, and I think he started in the sixties or seventies.

Rei:

by the time I was a kid in the eighties, it was pretty, major, among Japanese kids and it's this, cat.

Rei:

Robot who has a magic pocket on his belly, and he takes out out these,

Rei:

super inventions out of his pocket to help this real, kid character.

Rei:

A, a human being who's kind of a, a dropout.

Rei:

You know, he's this, elementary school kid who's not popular, among his friends, but you know, this kid.

Rei:

Befriends this cat, robot and, gains this, superpower through the, so, but it's a combination of a real, I mean, it's anime,

Rei:

but a, a real person and a fictional character coexisting in the real world.

Rei:

And something like that is very, very, very common.

Rei:

And part of it, and it might, by the way, it might be kind of an interesting sociology study to do.

Rei:

Why in Japan this.

Rei:

Phenomenon of anime to begin with, but the coexistence of real world

Rei:

and the imaginary world being a very natural thing for many, many decades.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So now, and now having lived here for 25, 30 years or so, I see what I was used to 20, almost 30 years ago.

Rei:

And then even, because I left Japan when I was 16, so, and after I left.

Rei:

Things like Pokemon.

Rei:

It was around when I was in Japan, but it wasn't as big.

Rei:

But now, 20, 30 years later, it's a massive, massive global business and a lot of.

Rei:

Play for young brands, but also, you know, like airlines for instance.

Rei:

collaborating with Pokemon for for their business.

Rei:

And then this coexistence between, Rio and Imaginary is something that, again,

Rei:

30 years ago didn't see a lot, but now I see outside of Japan, Japan quite a bit.

Ana:

It is, and then in my article I start with that.

Ana:

For me, it's less of a nostalgia and more of that.

Ana:

AI induced belief that nothing is real and we are sort of okay with that.

Ana:

Like, you know what I mean?

Ana:

It's not exactly that we can tell what the scenery or like, have you

Ana:

seen, like I've seen recently those like, fashion but end campaigns.

Ana:

Look amazing, or I don't know if you've seen like tennis courts around the world, none of them are real.

Rei:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Ana:

that was like a few months back, maybe last fall or I don't know, maybe even six months ago that was, but just

Ana:

the, just the point is that we are visually enjoying whatever AI is creating without being like, oh, that's not real.

Ana:

So I think that for us is more like how the.

Ana:

That reality of content and different domains, but also that reality of time.

Ana:

Because, you know, why would things that were in our childhood stay in our childhood?

Ana:

Why wouldn't we put, I use the examples of, of bag charms, which are

Ana:

those little toys that women put on their, like Louis Vuitton, Hermes.

Ana:

Bags.

Ana:

It's basically, the, the time.

Ana:

Well, like, I think we touched upon it in the last episode, that basically you have just one time that is now,

Ana:

you know, that can be something from the past, something from the future, something from the present.

Ana:

And I think for me that's more like, why does it mean that like you can't have a Lego set in a, as an adult,

Ana:

or people now don't, they don't wanna go out, they don't wanna go clubbing.

Ana:

Drinking.

Ana:

They have friends over and play board games.

Ana:

So that's kind of the mixture of behaviors that we enjoyed, but it doesn't matter at what age.

Ana:

So I think it's more that thing like

Ana:

that.

Ana:

We are very comfortable in our imagination, so, so to speak.

Ana:

Which I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

Rei:

I, yeah, I also think that, because I think when we were in our teens or even younger, our parents.

Rei:

They were born, say, you know, a decade or within the first decade after the war.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

And they didn't necessarily have the mask, at least like in from my own upbringing.

Rei:

By the time I was a, I was a kid, I, I was born in, in the seventies and

Rei:

eighties that the, the country of Japan has revived enough from the war.

Rei:

To provide imagination or imaginary, fictional world to kids.

Rei:

Whereas like my parents, I don't think they had as much of that when they were kids.

Rei:

So what I'm saying is that I think, people like me grew up with, you know, Lego.

Rei:

Like I remember like I was a big fan of Lego, and then in the eighties, star Wars came out, you know, and then what?

Rei:

By the way, when I was a kid, there was no, Lego, star Wars kids.

Rei:

They were just like basic ones.

Rei:

And then when I was in my twenties or even thirties, 25 years after the

Rei:

first, star Wars came out, like those Star Wars kits were introduced by Lego.

Rei:

So people like me in our thirties were like, holy cow, this is amazing.

Rei:

Like, you know, I was 12 or I was seven when the first Star Wars movie came out.

Rei:

And so there was that kind of like nostalgia, but then like we were able to live that again, but because we were just

Rei:

old enough to be able to experience this imaginary, fictional world as kids, I. but they weren't as developed as it is now.

Rei:

And then now it's, it's, you know, I think you point out in the, in, in your article, it's not quite nostalgia, but it's a

Rei:

different sort of dimensional, different, type of world that when we were kids then, you know, we didn't have it available.

Rei:

But now, like we can relive it, but we don't have to be, be ashamed

Rei:

about, oh, you know, this is for kids versus this is for adults.

Rei:

I

Ana:

That's important.

Ana:

I think what what you just said is really important because there were previous generations here very.

Ana:

Strict behaviors.

Ana:

That's what I said, it was very linear.

Ana:

Oh, you are too old for that.

Ana:

You know, as a like, and they, and I think that now it's more like all bets are off

Ana:

in a sense.

Ana:

And that the past time no one is gonna tell you like you, you know how

Ana:

there's like coloring books for adults and whatnot, you know what I mean?

Ana:

You can do whatever you feel like doing.

Ana:

You know, you can pay board games, you can make Lego sets, you can do, and I mean, that's massive.

Ana:

How much money Lego is making of sets for adults.

Ana:

It's a big business.

Rei:

you said like what, 20 20%?

Rei:

10%,

Ana:

something insane and they didn't even do that maybe 15 years ago.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

That that's something became, I don't know.

Ana:

David Beckham was posting.

Ana:

They have like.

Ana:

More than 70,000 subreddit.

Ana:

And when you, like I looked for a minute into Lego, I dunno if I wanna write a case study or something.

Ana:

And I wanted to listen to podcasts about Lego.

Ana:

Dude, do you know how many podcasts are that are.

Rei:

No, I don't.

Ana:

Like, people are just, it's, it's a hobby.

Ana:

it's,

Rei:

Right,

Ana:

a passion point.

Ana:

Like any other, you can go shooting, you can go running, or you can put Lego, you know, like it's just a hobby that is.

Ana:

So I think that there is that part that actually doesn't go away with childhood, that hobby part, which I

Ana:

think that maybe now is the culture we are coming to terms, or maybe in the past 20, 30 years or whatnot.

Rei:

30 years ago, I think that culture just didn't exist because like no grownup would collect a toy.

Rei:

You know, like my parents a generation or even somebody who's, you know, 10, 20 years older than like my uncle,

Rei:

they would not collect, you know, they would collect things like, I don't know, watches or whatever.

Rei:

You know, things for grownup people.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Now it's perfectly acceptable for grownups to collect what used to be for kids toys.

Rei:

That just didn't, didn't exist, you know, 25 years, or, you know, in the eighties and nineties when

Ana:

honestly, some of those Lego sets, like collectible ones that is insane expensive.

Ana:

They're like collectibles and everything else.

Ana:

So I think that's, that's it.

Ana:

But the other thing that I wanna touch upon, so one thing is like toys and

Ana:

how toy companies are reallocating some of their resources towards adults.

Ana:

And because if business is there more is gonna come and that's where the marketing follows and so on.

Ana:

But the other thing is mascots.

Ana:

And again, I think you're a perfect person to talk this about because a Hello Kitty is Japanese and it was 50 years last year.

Ana:

But when you think about Mr. Clean, Ronald McDonald, KFC, like, or even, even Elmo.

Ana:

and then the question is like, is this something we are gonna see more of?

Ana:

Because human influencers, they get canceled.

Ana:

They age, they, you know, become, but like with something, someone like Elmo who's been around, what, 50 years, 40 years,

Rei:

yeah, yeah.

Rei:

For a long time.

Rei:

And it has, yeah.

Ana:

you can't cancel Elmo really?

Ana:

Can you cancel Mr. Clean or Ralph Lauren Bear?

Ana:

I mean, they haven't done anything.

Ana:

know, like, so yeah, I'm

Rei:

I mean, they may be, you know, Elmo, the Hello Kitties of the world.

Rei:

They may be a different kind of influencer slash celebrity.

Rei:

I mean, I'm sure they have quote unquote managers, but they don't have necessarily personality, you know, difficult

Ana:

Oh my God.

Ana:

But no, they do

Rei:

They do.

Rei:

What do you mean?

Ana:

account.

Ana:

They have Twitter account, they have Instagram

Rei:

I see, I see,

Ana:

tweet, especially in Japan, like mascots are everywhere.

Ana:

Every town has a mascot and

Rei:

Every town has a mascot.

Ana:

And so on.

Ana:

So they're lit. Like in Japan, they're literally creating a thing around that.

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

Speaking of which, and, and the, just to expand on what, what you just said

Rei:

about, every town or every region having a mascot, so Yes, it's very true.

Rei:

Like different towns and different prefectures have a mascot and usually they are used for tourism reasons.

Rei:

Right to and, and, and or to sell souvenirs.

Rei:

But one of the mascots, which is a bear mascot that comes from the, the southern part of Japan and the name of

Rei:

the prefecture, literally translated, it's called The Origin of Bears.

Rei:

That's the name of the region.

Rei:

Or the meaning of the, the, the region or the, the name.

Rei:

So actually it's a designer who created, oh, you know what the name of the, the prefecture is, origin of Bears.

Rei:

Why not, why don't we create a, a bear mascot?

Rei:

Very simplistic, sort of a. Idea.

Rei:

But this mascot became huge and it's been around for almost two decades now, and

Rei:

it was, again, it was initially conceived as a way to represent the prefecture.

Rei:

But to your point, what's good about.

Rei:

A mascot or a fictional character is that they don't age.

Rei:

So it's not like you have to get a new person when they, you know, get sick or

Rei:

they, they have a scandal or whatever, but it's always the same character.

Rei:

So in terms of, you know, brand consistency, it's, it's something that you can control and manage really well.

Rei:

Because they don't age.

Rei:

You can give whatever character, personality you want that mascot to represent.

Rei:

So it is, I do think it's a very useful representation of a brand and I. It happens in Japan.

Rei:

There are some of those that have stayed around and that, that have, you know, either like, like Hello Kitty.

Rei:

It was, that was never, it was a, that was its own ip.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

And then there are mascot, like, you know, Elmo is its own ip, Drummond that I mentioned.

Rei:

It's its own ip.

Rei:

And then there are, like, Mr. Clean is a mascot for a brand,

Rei:

that their character that I just mentioned is a mascot for a region.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So those ones.

Ana:

ips, you know,

Rei:

They can be ips.

Rei:

Yes, yes.

Ana:

you have Geico.

Ana:

G, ge.

Rei:

Geico.

Rei:

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Ana:

So you have Gecko from Geico with Avengers in an ad. So he's now IP separate from, I mean, obviously

Ana:

he's never gonna be, or she or they, they're never gonna be separate from,

Rei:

Right, right, right.

Rei:

From the brand.

Ana:

from, from from Geico.

Ana:

But they have their own adventure in another ip.

Ana:

So I do think as the culture is moving towards more.

Ana:

Entertainment and that cross pollination of talent look at Elmo from Sesame Street to running perfectly encapsulates

Ana:

their brand message, but it has nothing to do with Sesame Street.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

I do, I do agree with you, but it just shows you the opportunities like you can imagine the adventures of Mr.

Ana:

Clean

Rei:

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ana:

you in in some world or you can sit and then Hello Kitty collaborates with gazillion

Rei:

Yes.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Fashion brands, car brands.

Rei:

I mean so many brands.

Rei:

Yeah,

Ana:

Especially the 50th anniversary and, and then so on.

Ana:

So it's kind of, I just think that there is.

Ana:

The, that is actually what we are seeing because we are seeing brands going into entertainment and that

Ana:

gives advantage to those brands who already have their mascots.

Ana:

And speaking of, can you notice like how mascots get like a facelift?

Ana:

They get like update like Mr. Clean used to be like this, like crunchy.

Ana:

I guess middle aged.

Rei:

yeah,

Ana:

now he's like super buff, like, you know, 30-year-old.

Ana:

And then like when you see, I saw the other day, Paula there by Ralph Lauren used to be really choppy.

Ana:

They put him on Ozempic.

Ana:

Now he's like, skinny bear.

Ana:

You need to see

Rei:

Oh man.

Ana:

find it.

Ana:

So I think like depending what's going on in society, those masks, like if it's youth, if it's.

Ana:

Thinness or whatnot.

Ana:

They get a little like, you know, like reshuffle, but they as, but then, then again, that is that consistency.

Ana:

They're like conation proof, like,

Rei:

so I think, you know, a couple of the, the example that you just mentioned, like the bear, or the, OR, or Mr.

Rei:

Clean, those are existing mascots that have been around for quite some time.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

And then I. The collaboration between, let's say, on and Elmo.

Rei:

Elmo is a character that's been around for a long time, not associated with any, I'm sure you know, they, they may

Rei:

have done any, any brand collaborations in the past, but recently, as far as I know, I don't think Sesame Street

Rei:

or Elmo characters specifically was associated with a major brand recently.

Rei:

Was it?

Ana:

I don't think Elma was, I don't remember.

Ana:

But like we can, like, we can Google, but like, I don't, I don't remember anything, but that doesn't mean, you

Ana:

know, but like now they like Sesame Street unionized, so they cut characters out.

Rei:

Oh,

Ana:

Have you seen, yay.

Ana:

That was from last week or something.

Ana:

So they're like.

Ana:

They're not the main ones.

Rei:

sure, sure, sure.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

But they had to, they had to downsize.

Ana:

I know.

Rei:

That's kind of sad.

Ana:

I mean,

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

Well anyway, so I don't know.

Ana:

Like that is the whole thing.

Ana:

I think that like, again, when you, the same way that you have

Ana:

like fashion designers be kind becoming graphers for movies,

Ana:

you have that crosspollination of talent in even in the domain of.

Ana:

Imaginary characters.

Ana:

They're equal cultural characters as as human beings.

Rei:

I think one, one thing that I might say is a watch out for, these, these collaborations or, or brands I've noticed,

Rei:

I mean, since you mentioned this topic a few weeks ago, I was looking around and there have been a few brands in the last

Rei:

couple years, and I'm not gonna mention who they are specifically, but they've, they've tried to create their own mascot.

Rei:

It's very difficult to create a, a, a mascot from scratch, specifically to make that mascot commercial.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

I think the dual lingo mask could work.

Rei:

I, I, I think it worked, but I kind of think that like, they were

Rei:

smart in that they were very gradual and organic in growing that mascot.

Rei:

You know, they,

Ana:

you can't press.

Ana:

Yes.

Rei:

They didn't force, they didn't come up with a big campaign, Hey,

Rei:

you know, here's a, here's this ca character, here's this mascot.

Rei:

Right?

Rei:

Like, they kind of, I, I think what they were smart was that, they were experimenting with the social media

Rei:

and they just happened to have already this all character as a mascot that they were using sort of

Rei:

in small ways, almost like a clippy in Microsoft, you know, word long time

Rei:

ago.

Rei:

Then they started experimenting it and then it started to gain traction and then they made a bigger deal out of

Rei:

it as opposed to, Hey, here's a mascot representing brand X or whatever.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And I think that's sort of a danger that, that I've also seen, not a lot of cases, but a few cases that

Rei:

I, that, that I saw that, you know, there was like a press release.

Rei:

Some, some company put out for a new mascot that they, they introduced

Rei:

and then six months later nobody's talking about it, you know?

Ana:

Right, because you can't, like mascots came from sports and they came for, that was their like social

Ana:

thing that, that sportsman just like cre, that sports fans like identify with and or organize around it like

Ana:

that they kind of symbolize that belonging and that shared passion.

Ana:

So you, you need to have those projections.

Ana:

That is basically you need to lend your identity or identity of that

Ana:

group to the mascot, and it makes sense only when that happens.

Ana:

And that happens years, years, decades over time.

Ana:

You know, like you know how NFL clubs, they have like Eagles, Bengali, tigers, so on.

Ana:

But but that's years and years and years.

Ana:

And you have, in the European soccer you have mascots and so on.

Ana:

So, but it does take, and like another thing that I wanna say, like, Michel Mel looked like damn scary back in the day.

Rei:

Yes,

Ana:

so creepy, you know, until they, because it was like, whoa.

Ana:

Science experiment.

Ana:

And then also mascot die, like Mr. Peanut was killed and there was a baby peanut that was

Rei:

yeah.

Ana:

You know what I mean?

Ana:

So I think you're just scratching the surface in terms of narrative possibilities because the narrative

Ana:

world is created the easiest when you have a character and their adventure.

Ana:

Like, look, Barbie Movie Barbie, and her

Rei:

Yeah, yeah,

Ana:

like, so it's kind of, when you have that cha, you already have an anchor in a sense, like where do they live?

Ana:

What do they do?

Ana:

Who, who do they know?

Ana:

And so on.

Rei:

Speaking of Barbie, another dimension of this conversation that

Rei:

I, that just, piqued my interest and I I will mention is there's the mascot.

Rei:

Aspect of, of this conversation.

Rei:

The other dimension, I think, is the merging or the fusion between real and imaginary.

Rei:

So Barbie movie, what I found, and I'm not a by any means, a Barbie fan, but I didn't enjoy the movie quite a bit.

Rei:

And what I didn't know until I watched the movie was that they did a really good job, fusing.

Rei:

What is fictional and imaginary and what is real and how, you know,

Rei:

Bobby and Ken came to the real world and interacted with real people.

Rei:

And the reason why I bring that aspect of this conversation up is that, and something that you and I talked about

Rei:

quite a while ago, how McDonald's did, This was an like an activation campaign maybe sometime last year,

Rei:

almost, 6, 8, 9 months ago, where they took a cultural anime meme and then replicated in the real world.

Rei:

and I thought that was really culturally insightful because what they did was they took.

Rei:

What's called McDonald's.

Rei:

So M upside down w McDonald's.

Rei:

And McDonald's in the gaming world is the McDonald's, but in the gaming world.

Rei:

So a lot of game designers and gamers, you know, put the W upside,

Rei:

oh m the upside down and they, they refer to McDonald's as McDonald's.

Rei:

And then what McDonald's did was take that and made a real, McDonald's, I think somewhere in la.

Rei:

And what they served in the, in the Guanos restaurant was, you know, stuff from the, the gaming world.

Rei:

So kind of like the blurring of the lines between what's virtual and imaginary and then bringing into the real world.

Rei:

And what, what was interesting about Elmo is that one aspect is, is this iconic mascot, but

Rei:

also the fact that a, a imaginary character like Elmo talking with.

Rei:

A real person, Roger Federer, and then having that dialogue in the real, you know, in a commercial.

Rei:

I mean, they do that in episodes all the time, obviously.

Rei:

But, it's, it's, it's sort of a, I feel like a new thing that

Rei:

over the last couple years and that, that you haven't seen a lot.

Ana:

tolerance.

Ana:

That's, I think, created by ai.

Ana:

That was my first thing because I was like, when I wanted to write

Ana:

that article, I was like, I don't want it to be about nostalgia.

Ana:

I don't.

Ana:

It is, I don't know what it is.

Ana:

I don't know what it is.

Ana:

And then I was like, oh, it's actually the fact that we are much more tolerant about this one continuum

Ana:

of reality that's not just physical, but it's in an offline or one thing.

Ana:

And then what?

Ana:

When you have that culture, it's only in an offline culture.

Ana:

Because before you had like Burger King, the King

Rei:

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Ana:

when was shooting like.

Ana:

You know, their As and then the king was running away from fans and the kings on would fall and so on.

Rei:

that one.

Rei:

That one.

Rei:

I feel like, like what Bergen King was doing 10 years ago and what I would say liquid Death, death is doing now

Rei:

is it's, it's a fictional thing, but it stays in, stays in the fictional world.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

What you are talking about, what we are talking about here is the, the blurring of the two.

Ana:

Mm.

Rei:

speaking of which, did you listen to this, New York Times, daily.

Rei:

If episode about a married woman falling in love with a chatbot man

Ana:

No, but that is, that like was the, like the Spike Lee movie her,

Rei:

oh, and uh, it

Ana:

fell in love with Samantha and.

Rei:

This one was, was kind of different in that,

Rei:

this may go in a different tangent, but I, it just reminded me.

Rei:

So a married, women, And she, her relationship with her husband was totally fine.

Rei:

Well, mostly fine I guess.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And then she was openly, she was telling her husband that she was

Rei:

doing this, and then I guess part of it was like a journalism, thing.

Rei:

So she was being recorded at the same time.

Rei:

So she knew that this was being recorded, and making it known to her husband, but at the same time she was having this.

Rei:

A very romantic conversation with a, with a, with a AI boyfriend essentially.

Rei:

And then the husband was fine.

Rei:

Oh, you know, this is just a fictional thing, you know, I'm not worried.

Rei:

and then, I mean, she was even like crying, about this relationship with this virtual being, and I'm like,

Ana:

It happen in.

Rei:

I mean, it's been happening, dude.

Rei:

It's been happening for like decades in Japan.

Rei:

It's been happening

Ana:

I like, honestly, like I'll put a little aspects there.

Ana:

Alright, before we wrap this conversation, because I'm mindful of time, I also

Ana:

wanna talk about one thing, qui game, which is using kids games.

Ana:

Toy characters and it is inverting them in something insanely scary.

Ana:

So one thing is we, we talked about a couple of episodes ago, why, you know, the first, first season was amazing.

Ana:

The

Rei:

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Ana:

was okay.

Ana:

But now that we are talking about toys and mascots, like starting

Ana:

from the first one, a very popular character that's then suiting people.

Ana:

To like laser eyes basically to all those other like innocent kids'.

Ana:

Games are like turned into something so, so scary and crazy and dystopian.

Ana:

So what are your thoughts on that?

Rei:

think what was really unexpected about that is just a juxtaposition between something so mundane and something so,

Rei:

Playful and even soft like a lot of people have and particularly people in Korea who grew up playing those games.

Rei:

And like in Japan, you know, we had similar, different but similar games.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

And like I do remember the red light, green light thing.

Rei:

We had a different version of it in Japan and growing up with it in Japan.

Rei:

And I could imagine very easily how disorienting what I used to play as a kid.

Rei:

As, as 80-year-old or or 7-year-old can be used to murder people.

Rei:

And that just extreme juxtaposition.

Rei:

It was unexpected.

Ana:

Well, I think that's the, that's my question is why is so creepy to

Ana:

have something that's so innocent and naive becomes so murderous?

Ana:

I guess because it's unexpected or is there anything else or, because it's so innocent, I.

Rei:

Again, I think, I think it's just, the complete sort of up like 180 degrees the other direction.

Rei:

You know, it's not just taking something that is here and then just adding a little bit of twist to, to

Rei:

give it a different meaning or what have you, but it's giving 180 twist.

Ana:

it into its, subverting it

Rei:

I think it's the extremism of a simple, innocent idea taken to the other extreme that was, that was unexpected.

Rei:

And I, I give them, especially the first time that they did it, I give

Rei:

them credit for that cre, that kind of creative, unexpected thinking.

Rei:

Perhaps that was, you know, like you and I talked about was missing in the second episode, was that taking

Rei:

something that's so either innocent or so mundane or so normal, and then giving a 180 degree interpretation of

Ana:

they did the same thing.

Ana:

It's just that we are already used to it.

Ana:

We knew the catch first time.

Ana:

We didn't know the catch.

Rei:

No, that's why, that's why like the first time was much more captivating and then that was what I'm saying is

Rei:

that was missing from the second one is that, you know, I think, I think we were subconsciously expecting, what's that?

Rei:

You know, when we watch stories, when we watch drama series, when we

Rei:

watch movies, we are subconsciously looking for that surprise.

Rei:

Or like when there's a surprise, then we are, and especially we are, you know, impressed by or whatever,

Ana:

Yeah, we, knew there was a catch this time, but also like at a similar time when there was, there was Queen Gambit

Rei:

Mm.

Ana:

a board game, you know?

Ana:

And then like the way like, just to maybe summarize all of this before going into hit list is basically.

Ana:

Saying like one is the business and the economic reality in that like, oh, there

Ana:

are less and less kids born in the world, especially Korea and Asia, Europe, us.

Ana:

So let's say, you know, and in that sense, toy companies are reshuffling to a new market, number one.

Ana:

Number two, the year like that, imaginary layer of storytelling is basically our creative canvas is expanded into,

Ana:

and I think that's powered by AI in the past, or, or, or superpowered.

Ana:

And then the next level is the board games as a past time.

Ana:

And then the, the final layer for me is.

Ana:

Play.

Ana:

Play as itself that has rules and regulations and that how some brands are building the entire.

Ana:

Rules of the, like, the play around them.

Ana:

Like for example, for me, Tom Brown or Hermes, in, in, in fashion, they have a

Ana:

consistent world, but you can also say that McDonald's may be building one.

Ana:

You can also say that Duolingo may be building one.

Ana:

Basically when the tone of voice with the color palette, with the,

Ana:

you know, you create everything around when Geico has one.

Ana:

Is kind of like, and where basically people themselves became become mascots.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah, yeah, Well, interesting topic.

Rei:

Should we go to Hill list?

Ana:

Absolutely.

Ana:

So do you wanna go first?

Rei:

you go first.

Rei:

You go first.

Ana:

I go first.

Ana:

I had two.

Ana:

So my first one is that I read the other day a New York Times article how Gen Z is tired of trends because

Ana:

then like, because TikTok, everything lasts for really short period of time.

Ana:

But the problem is not that it is just short period of time, is that is connected with.

Ana:

Consumption of physical things.

Ana:

So you need to be either vanilla girl or a coastal grandma or dark academia or whatnot.

Ana:

But those trends change like very fast.

Ana:

And just the moment you buy things to have a look almost becoming a mascot for that trend, it changes.

Ana:

And then the gen, like the kids are like, wait, this is gross.

Ana:

I don't wanna participate in this.

Ana:

I'm gonna buy durable things.

Ana:

And then non trend became a trend.

Ana:

So you start to, can escape the algorithm in, in a sense.

Ana:

But I do think it's mega relevant because trend, trend is showing one's

Ana:

cultural ca currency and cultural capital for brands and for consumers.

Ana:

And that is going then change the dynamic between brands and consumers.

Ana:

If consumers are like, you're not following trends anymore, and if brands are like, what are they gonna do?

Ana:

If you are a. CPG brand.

Ana:

A fashion brand, but it's not just fashion.

Ana:

This is also gaming.

Ana:

It's either Zelda or iod this down.

Ana:

hell divers or like, it, it really what is fashionable, what is trendy,

Ana:

which video games to play, but then changes faster and faster and faster.

Ana:

So at some point it's not gonna be a viable.

Ana:

Business and brand strategy for brands to do that.

Ana:

It's not gonna be a viable economic behavior for consumers to do it.

Rei:

So I have, I have two, two topics that I was, thinking about.

Rei:

One is, this sounds a little random, but related to something that we

Rei:

talked about today, but also just in general, is the role of cities.

Rei:

In culture and trends.

Rei:

And what I mean by that is I was listening to a, actually an economics podcast, and it was saying that people

Rei:

are leaving cities and, and in the US states like New York and California

Rei:

because it's become too expensive to live in those places, right?

Rei:

What I'm, what I'm curious about is what that would aff, what impact it would have on culture and like cities like

Rei:

London, New York, Los Angeles, Tokyo, Paris, who were, and to some extent still considered to be the cultural

Rei:

centers, or at least like the, the mega epicenters of, of Couch global culture.

Rei:

If young people like, I'm able to live in New York City because I'm a, I'm a middle aged man and making

Rei:

decent amount of money and can afford to live, but I can't Imagine me 23.

Rei:

I mean, when I first moved to 23-year-old, I mean, this is 25 years ago, and I, I had to live with my brother.

Rei:

We had to be roommates because we had, we couldn't afford to live by ourselves.

Rei:

And back then too, you know, everybody had a, had a roommate.

Rei:

But even if I were living with my brother, when, you know, if I'm 23 today, like I can't imagine how difficult

Rei:

it would be for a 23, 24, 25, even 27 year olds to live in New York City.

Rei:

So if that's what's happening today in New York City.

Rei:

What's happening to culture and trends that I thought 20 years ago were

Rei:

coming from big cities, you know, is it, has it just moved online?

Rei:

Is that the, the place?

Rei:

or like, what's the interaction between local places versus, you

Rei:

know, online, cultures and how they germinate each other to become culture

Ana:

I think that's very like, so.

Ana:

At the same time, New York doesn't lack young people.

Ana:

When you go out,

Rei:

Hmm.

Ana:

there is a ton, and Brian and I look at my husband and I, we are

Ana:

like, how can those people afford to be, you know, and they're like there.

Ana:

There was a recent New York magazine article about

Rei:

yeah.

Ana:

parents are ing.

Rei:

Oh, wow.

Rei:

Wow.

Rei:

Right?

Ana:

And basically because you can't make enough money when you are 23, 25 basically to, to not just live, but to, to actually

Ana:

go out, because you look in a dinner is like a hundred per person, so 200,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Easily.

Ana:

So in, in, in any scenario, it's, it's expensive not just to live to God, but still there's so many young people.

Ana:

I like it.

Ana:

It's not that they're like, as you say, oh, but it's kind of like older people now.

Ana:

This is aging city.

Ana:

There is not new things coming.

Ana:

It's still very young,

Rei:

Yeah,

Ana:

so to speak.

Ana:

so I think it's, it's, it's a complexity of, Intergenerational dynamic, I

Ana:

would say as well that parents support their children way longer than before

Ana:

because both of us lived with our, I lived with my brother as well when

Ana:

I moved to US, and it was less of a parent support and more of, you

Rei:

Like siblings or, yeah.

Ana:

You know, so I, I think that dynamic should be also looked into.

Ana:

And second thing is, which leads me to my second one, is people travel way more.

Ana:

So even if you don't necessarily live in New York, you take a flight 55 times a day and you can easily access it.

Ana:

So that's called, like, there was a tweet, the other day that they saw

Ana:

it called ent, which is, uh, like, it's, it's a contagion of affluence.

Ana:

So f everyone, everyone, a big majority of people.

Ana:

Population is affluent enough to fly frequently to fly tiny destinations from Santa Barbara to San Francisco,

Ana:

half an hour flight, and then to expect to be in the lounge, which are like lounges are super crowded.

Ana:

Then to expect to like board first and so on.

Ana:

So those expectations of kind of rich.

Ana:

And why like of being rich and it just become very crowded

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

No, it definitely,

Ana:

that sort of area.

Ana:

When people are one per like it, they're not even 1%.

Ana:

It's like there is a lot of one percenters, you know?

Ana:

And with those expectations that come, oh, the privacy, the surveys, the, the experience, and so on.

Rei:

yeah,

Ana:

become mass masti.

Ana:

You know, they're like flying to Erma.

Ana:

They're like, I think like that is one thing that actually that mobility that flying really allowed people,

Ana:

oh, I'm going to live in Nashville and I'll come once a month to New

Rei:

Or, or like live upstate New York and come to New York

Ana:

Million people.

Ana:

Like I know so many, like, you know what I mean?

Ana:

But even if you wanna say, Hey, we are, we are going to second tier city because

Ana:

I don't know, it's more affordable in schools and so on, blah blah.

Ana:

You still have like easy access.

Rei:

Cool.

Ana:

What's the second one?

Rei:

2, Oh, so the other, the other thing, it's more less of, what I think should is happening, but what

Rei:

should be happening is c-suites should ha should hire more interns.

Ana:

I see.

Ana:

I.

Rei:

the reason why I say it is I think young people can have more power.

Rei:

Like when I was 21, I didn't have any power.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

But now young people can have more power than I used to when I was 21, 22.

Rei:

And in terms of you're, you're shaking your head.

Rei:

Not

Rei:

everybody.

Ana:

just

Ana:

No, no, no, no, no.

Ana:

Honestly, I, I agree with you.

Ana:

Actually.

Ana:

I do agree with you.

Ana:

I was, no, no, no.

Ana:

I was, I was like making face.

Ana:

Because I was thinking about millennials, not Gen Z. Gen Z is very different than millennials,

Rei:

right, right.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

No, not, I'm not talking

Ana:

even out to millennials, like they're horror stories.

Ana:

Like I'm happy to share, but like Go, go.

Ana:

Finish your argument.

Ana:

Yes.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So, the, the reason why I thought about it is I just happened to be browsing through Instagram, and my friend, who has

Rei:

a, a ccp, you know, food, food company, she, she's a, one of the founders and small company, she said, oh, you know,

Rei:

meet our new intern and this intern, I, I don't, I don't remember, her name, but this young looking individual.

Rei:

I just happened to click on this person's profile and she's got 500,000 followers.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And I was talking to another person who's in his sixties, and by the way,

Rei:

this person is very, like culturally aware, culturally relevant, individual.

Rei:

And he was talking about a, a college graduate that he hired, recently.

Rei:

Maybe two years ago.

Rei:

But the, what, what, what's important about that conversation was that he actually works with that individual

Rei:

directly as opposed to like hiring an intern and letting like, you know, third layer down, manage the interns.

Rei:

But he like, actively engages what they're interested in, what they're doing and, and let them like.

Rei:

Participate in meetings and, that, that, so like those two examples, those are like very isolated examples.

Rei:

But I, I think C-Suite and then like the executives that I talk to, some of them are just so removed from the day-to-day.

Rei:

They're smart from a business perspective, but like what's happening on the ground, like completely detached.

Rei:

So,

Rei:

uh,

Ana:

that.

Rei:

C-Suites hiring more interns and working directly with those interns.

Ana:

That.

Ana:

And honestly, I work only with 20 something year olds now for like creative strategy for, because you

Ana:

like, the best ideas come and they're like perfectly, and also they, they're more like self-sustainable,

Ana:

independent than millennials were, you know, like remember millennials?

Ana:

Like I'll just like, I know we are running out of time, but like my favorite story was like, oh, like when

Ana:

I was told, when I was chief brand officer and one of the companies.

Ana:

That I was told by a millennial social media manager, it'd be really helpful if you wrote that down for her.

Rei:

Man.

Ana:

So Gen Z, they're like, not like that.

Ana:

They're like, you can breathe them.

Ana:

They run with it.

Ana:

They work over the week.

Ana:

They like, at least that's my experience.

Ana:

And millennials were way more spoiled.

Ana:

Like, yeah, like I, I was telling her what to do and she's like, it would be really helpful if you wrote that down.

Rei:

Oh man.

Rei:

You were told

Ana:

know, so, you know, like, so, but I totally get what you're saying

Ana:

and I think that's, I think you should suggest to your clients Thousand percent.

Rei:

Yes, will do.

Rei:

All right with that, I think that's a wrap.

Ana:

So that's a wrap of episode 11.

Ana:

Thanks everyone for listening and follow us on YouTube, apple Podcasts, Spotify.

Ana:

And thanks again to our producer, Vanja Arsenov.

Ana:

And as always, thank you Rei for amazing

Rei:

It was fun.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Ciao.

Ana:

ciao.

Ana:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
How Brands Influence Culture
Hitmakers is an exploration of cultural influence and how brands create it. Every two weeks, Ana Andjelic, a brand executive, and Rei Inamoto, a creative entrepreneur, talk about brands that made a dent in culture - through their product, aesthetics, content, business model, or technology - and unpack how they did it.

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Rei Inamoto