Episode 3

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Published on:

28th Nov 2024

Product identity and functionality: friends or foes?

What are luxury goods good for? How about a pair of socks or sneakers? In this episode, Rei and Ana talk about apparel’s two opposing forces - product identity and functionality - is deeply embedded in creative, strategic and operational decisions that shape apparel’s business models. Some products, like luxury items, over-index on identity; others, like Uniqlo or Muji, are deeply rooted in functionality. To succeed, apparel brands need to have a mix of both. But what is a good enough product? And can too much identity become a liability? Listen to discover.

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Transcript
Rei:

So how are you, Anna?

Rei:

Just so

Ana:

I'm very well.

Ana:

How

Rei:

just so that we can

Ana:

talk to the boarding scouts.

Ana:

I'm really well.

Ana:

I just came back from a photo shoot and it was amazing.

Ana:

that was very inspiring.

Ana:

And now I'm ready for this conversation.

Ana:

How about yourself, Ray?

Rei:

Well, I'm, I'm looking forward, when you can talk about it publicly, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Ana:

I know probably when it gets retouched, so what, what's new on your end?

Rei:

I'm not traveling for the remainder of the year, which is kind of refreshing.

Rei:

and especially like the holidays, yeah, the holidays,

Ana:

nice, right?

Rei:

I don't know what to do with myself.

Rei:

It's kind of unusual to not have.

Rei:

a travel schedule on my calendar for next eight weeks.

Rei:

So I'm kind of looking forward to it.

Ana:

yeah, yeah, but I understand you don't know what to do because I, I think the longest I've been here

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

continuously was two weeks.

Rei:

In New York.

Ana:

In New York, because I was in Miami, I was, you know, in two weeks, I'm going to Miami again on Monday, and then to Europe to promote the book in Paris, and then Zagreb, and then, uh, it's gonna be great,

Rei:

So we're talking about, identity versus functionality.

Rei:

Right?

Ana:

Yes, we are.

Rei:

Okay.

Ana:

it's not identity versus functionality.

Ana:

I think it's a continuum, or the way I did it is two by two, because you know how luxury brands are all about, you identity, the provenance, the founder, the, the quality,

Ana:

the aesthetics, the look, and then you have commodities that are

Rei:

Let me, let me, yeah.

Rei:

Let me rewind just to help the listeners visualize, uh, especially the, the, the podcast business, not the video.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Let me rewind.

Rei:

So you wrote an article, called product works and the diagram that you had in it, which I thought was.

Rei:

Quite simple, but quite deep in terms of how you think about the type of product that you're, you're dealing with.

Rei:

So you had on one axis identity plus or minus or max or minimum.

Rei:

And then on the vertical axis, you had a functionality max or minimum.

Rei:

And the top right corner would be maximum identity and maximum functionality.

Rei:

And you had, I think, right.

Rei:

As an example, as an example, and then.

Rei:

Some things that might be low on.

Rei:

identity, but high on functionality.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So something like that, I, I would imagine, let's say Uniqlo heat tech, which I'm wearing inside

Ana:

me stop you right there.

Ana:

So, because I think we do need to say identity plus, means presence of identity, which means a very clear emotional association, rational idea, part of identity minus means lack of identity.

Ana:

That means interchangeability of products.

Ana:

When you see something you don't know, is it like Nike?

Ana:

Is it Adidas?

Ana:

Is it something else where, you know, like those are, those are brands.

Rei:

I see.

Rei:

I see.

Rei:

I see.

Ana:

but I think it makes sense to kind of say presence or absence.

Ana:

And

Rei:

I see.

Rei:

I see.

Ana:

Functionality plus means products that are really durable, really functional in a sense they're variable, and they have a staying power because their product property is superior to others.

Rei:

Hmm.

Rei:

Hmm.

Ana:

And then functionality minus is they don't have any distinguished product properties.

Rei:

So something like, and on that diagram that you

Ana:

Let's go to Uniqlo now.

Rei:

yeah, say like Uniqlo.

Ana:

Yes,

Rei:

especially things that you wear on your skin directly, let's say like heat tech or arism or even like, socks that might not have a lot of identity.

Rei:

Maybe there are certain socks that you show off and that do have identity, but let's say generic ones, whether it's Uniqlo or Muji or something else, it doesn't really matter.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Those are.

Rei:

what you would consider low identity or plus or minus that would be minus and then high on functionality but low on identity, correct?

Ana:

correct.

Ana:

But they need to be, you need to be able to, like, they can't be fast fashion stuff, because fast fashion stuff doesn't last long enough.

Ana:

So that would be functionality minus, identity minus.

Ana:

Something that rips after three years, however, Uniqlo that you said or Muji or so on, they're durable enough.

Ana:

They have functionality that is, so maybe they don't have identity by design in terms of Muji.

Ana:

That's what I write on the sociology of business in that product was the whole idea behind Muji.

Ana:

Muji Roshi means high quality goods without the name because they're like, Oh, we don't need the brand.

Ana:

The products speak for themselves, you

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

If if, I remember correctly, so in that sense, Uniqlo is durable and

Ana:

you

Rei:

Very durable.

Ana:

t shirt very durable and Muji as well.

Ana:

I bought something, I wear men's M t shirts from Muji.

Ana:

They, they have the best fit and they last, they last five years and they still haven't changed their color.

Ana:

They're still haven't changed their materials.

Ana:

Like they've been washed a million times.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

So they have high functionality.

Ana:

Maybe they don't have identity because they don't have a logo or they don't have a signature color or a signature cut that you recognize, but they have high functionality.

Ana:

So they're valuable.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So again, just for the sake of the, the audience, can you give a quick summary of what you are arguing for in the article product product course?

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

And the point that you're making, axis between functionality and identity.

Ana:

Correct.

Ana:

So I think that, like, the whole idea is that you don't have really commodity, just commodities on one side and then super distinguished artisanal objects on the other.

Ana:

It's kind of the entire.

Ana:

Fashion, retail, apparel, sports, industries, the verticals have been created on that continuum.

Ana:

And the success of brands really depends, from their ownership and knowledge which quadrant they're playing in.

Ana:

So sometimes you have brands like Hermès, for example, they have super distinguished Birkin, they, they have a distinguished, Kelly bag, and these are recognizable.

Ana:

No matter how many mock ups there are, you know that this is a hundred thousand dollar Birkin bag.

Ana:

So it's, you know, It's really in which quadrant you play, and that's the whole point, really defines what your business model is, who your customer is, what your go to market strategy is, how do you do creative, and so on.

Ana:

So what we have now is that luxury brands that are all about identity, and there's like been a lot of conversation as the quarterly results from Q3 came in, and All luxury brands have been kind of going down, and I also wrote about it, and I'm sure you read in Wall Street Journal, in Financial Times, and so on, about this loss of, of, of pricing power from

Ana:

luxury.

Rei:

right

Rei:

right

Ana:

pricing power is really connected to that identity, because you never look at price with luxury.

Ana:

You look, you're buying something, you're buying into something, and because it says something about yourself.

Ana:

Chanel, Louis Vuitton.

Ana:

Even, even like Prada Hermes, it's not accidental that Prada and Hermes are doing really well, but all other Kering and Louis Vuitton brands are maybe on their way to, to, to kind of reconsider their strategy is because basically there has a decision to be made.

Ana:

Do you want To be fashion, you have one to have a fashion strategy, which is then constant novelty, constant new creative directors, opening new stores, maximizing your market presence, or you want to have that uniqueness, originality of identity

Ana:

that is differentiated because it's not available to everyone.

Rei:

you say in the article, that the difference between these days, the difference between brand and commodities, the line between the two is becoming blurry.

Ana:

Yes,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And the distinction is less clear than, than it used to be.

Ana:

it is.

Rei:

So, so let's unpack that.

Rei:

Tell me as it relates to this conversation the axis between identity versus functionality, right.

Rei:

In relation to something that has a strong brand versus something that is not.

Rei:

a commoditized brand?

Rei:

Yeah, how do identity and functionality relate to brand or commodity?

Ana:

Identity can come from a product.

Rei:

yes,

Ana:

As you know, with Nike, Waffle shoes, as you know, from your own work, with Uniqlo, with Asics, product can be so, with Google, can be so distinguish, distinguish, indistinguishable that it has its own identity.

Ana:

Dr.

Ana:

Martens, Levi's, 501, even Crocs.

Ana:

They have recognizable shape.

Ana:

They, you know what to expect from them.

Ana:

they have a specific way they're made and that doesn't change.

Ana:

100 of years didn't change.

Ana:

So that's that.

Ana:

So identity can come from that product functionality or it can come from brand.

Ana:

So when it comes from brand, that is what, what I was talking about earlier with luxury brands, it's heritage, it's history, it's story is the founder.

Ana:

So the most successful brands, luxury or not, were those that had product innovation, like new shape, new material, Coco Chanel did with, with her tweed, with her suits, Balenciaga, Bottega, all of them, Louis Vuitton at the end of the day, all of them.

Ana:

Started with product innovation and built a brand around that.

Ana:

So those are the Hermes at the end of a day, the symbols like the, the horse saddle and everything else that came out of it.

Ana:

It's a specific way of making things that distinguished them from everyone else.

Ana:

But then you have brands that.

Ana:

are making, I'll say products.

Ana:

Coca Cola makes, soda or Nike makes other shoes in addition to waffle.

Ana:

Apple makes Macintosh computer, that's how they start, but then everything else around it.

Ana:

Their identity is given to them through a brand.

Ana:

A brand is that emotion.

Ana:

that is given to inanimate objects.

Ana:

So now you, Nike means running, Apple means creativity.

Ana:

I don't know, what does Uniqlo mean for you?

Rei:

Uniquo means democracy, democracy of code.

Ana:

Great.

Ana:

Amazing.

Ana:

So you know what I mean?

Ana:

When you hear those things, oh, at Uniqlo, I'm gonna get something that's high quality at democratic price.

Ana:

You know, so in that sense, identity comes from two things and you can may end up at the same place.

Rei:

Mm

Ana:

When you have a strong brand, the problem becomes when you separate the product to the brand.

Ana:

And what does that mean?

Ana:

That means you can have the best advertising in the world, the most fun advertising in the world, if your product is not great.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

You're going to have, look, you can be successful.

Ana:

Zara is successful.

Ana:

Zara did improve their quality and so on,

Rei:

Mm hmm.

Ana:

but that's going to define your strategy.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So the point that you were making earlier and the recent conversations around how luxury brands are losing pricing power.

Ana:

Soft power pricing is connected.

Ana:

they still have pricing power, but people are questioning themselves because they lost the soft power is the cultural power.

Ana:

The power of status signaling that why do you like something you like something you wear you wear a t shirts with a star on it because that's your identity.

Ana:

And if someone comes in, you would pay a lot of money if you find one that's unique, you're not going to question, you know, in theory, and maybe in practice, but you don't question.

Ana:

Hey, how many there's, am I going to get out of this?

Ana:

Once that happens, you're in a domain of premium and mass brands.

Ana:

You're doing a rational calculation.

Ana:

You're not doing that emotional identity level, which is like you pay a thousand dollars for, for, for a wallet or a bag, a bag, if you're lucky.

Ana:

Because it has certain connotations, you know?

Ana:

So when you say, um, I don't know about this Chanel watch.

Ana:

How much am I, how many times am I going to wear it?

Ana:

That's the loss of self power.

Ana:

Although that didn't happen to Chanel, but I'm just,

Ana:

that's an example.

Rei:

No, no, that's good.

Rei:

So let's say like if I were to put my Self into the shoes of a marketer or even a product merchandiser getting ready for the next season A year from now, right?

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

How should I start thinking about functionality versus, identity as I'm planning the next lineup of products for the upcoming season?

Ana:

I would like you to answer that question.

Rei:

Okay.

Ana:

But I think that because we come from different, I think that that listeners heard my point of view.

Ana:

I would love

Rei:

No, I

Ana:

them and myself to hear yours.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

for the sake of this conversation, let me, Uniqlo, so I

Ana:

Ray doesn't want to give away.

Rei:

I'm sorry.

Ana:

You don't want to give away any smarts without being paid.

Ana:

You're like, I'm not giving you my strategy.

Rei:

Uh, no, not really.

Rei:

Just because, well, you know, no, no, I could talk about because I'm not really working with them when it comes to product development.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Or even, even like, seasonal campaigns.

Rei:

But, you know what, let's talk about Nike just because Nike, um, recent shakeup of the management.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

The CEO got, kicked out and a longtime veteran came back into the picture to take on the leadership role and what Nike could do to regain its status, relevance, and potentially commercial value as a, as a brand.

Rei:

And I would say a brand like Nike thrived because they were on the plus side.

Rei:

Of both functionality and identity.

Rei:

It's of those brands that needed to aim for the plus the max side of both sides, both axes.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Cause I think a lot of brands, particularly in the sports.

Rei:

sector.

Rei:

I think many of them started as a functionality brand.

Rei:

And then what Nike did brilliantly for many decades was that they were able to add identity into their storytelling way more effectively than

Ana:

correct.

Ana:

And you know why they did that?

Ana:

Because they, they started, they went from running to golfing, to swimming, to like all sports.

Ana:

And in order to do that, you really need to have a strong brand.

Ana:

You're not going to be the best in all of that, in terms of functionality.

Ana:

So that's why you need a brand, which is a guarantee, a stamp of quality.

Ana:

So it's a halo effect of like maybe basketball and, and running when they're really the best.

Ana:

Going into other areas, categories.

Ana:

So that was their growth strategy.

Ana:

Yes.

Ana:

Thousand

Rei:

interesting is just to take sports as an, as a category, as an example,

Rei:

and this may be one of the points that you're making is that I think in a business or in a category that is so focused on functionality or performance, right, functionality could also be the identity, couldn't it?

Rei:

So let me, let me, yeah, so

Rei:

yeah, so just to keep on the thought on Nike, I think back in the day when Nike became something back in the 70s and even in the 80s, starting with the running category, and by the way, one of the early quote unquote famous athlete endorsed athletes that they had was a guy named Steve Prefontaine, who was a mid and long distance runner.

Rei:

And he had an attitude.

Rei:

He embodied the spirit of Nike.

Rei:

And then later on, it was athletes like, Joe McEnroe, who was a tennis player, but he was a, he was a bad boy tennis player.

Rei:

And then in the eight, you know, late eighties to early nineties, he was Michael Jordan.

Rei:

And he was this superstar basketball player that was insanely talented and insanely skilled and superhuman.

Rei:

And he became an iconic figure, but it was the embodiment of functionality as well as identity that made Nike Nike.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Now, fast forward, say 30 years.

Rei:

And in the past five years, what's happened in that category of sports, Nike started to go downhill a little bit.

Rei:

I mean, Nike is still by far the biggest sports company.

Rei:

So, you know, they're not going to be taken over by one of the small players just yet.

Rei:

You know, they have some runway to course correct and take off again, but say in the

Ana:

would say they, I don't know if you agree, the timing was unfortunate.

Ana:

They released this ad

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

from NFL game On Monday, Nike released Instagram ad.

Ana:

Who was that guy who jumped backwards?

Ana:

Have you seen that Ray?

Ana:

That was, became a Nike ad.

Ana:

It was like, they, they just got out of the way.

Ana:

Athletes are superheroes and they just let, like, this is exactly what they were with Michael Jordan, with those, like, rule breaking,

Ana:

Extraordinary feats of extraordinary athletes.

Ana:

Rule breaking moment.

Ana:

So it's like, there is no product in there, there is nothing, there is no brand, there is no just do it, there is no slogan, there is no nothing.

Ana:

It's extraordinary moment where a brand captured it and say, witness, just witness the greatness.

Ana:

Athletes are the heroes.

Ana:

Get out of the room.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Right.

Ana:

instead of this elaborate ads, just capture the moment of greatness.

Ana:

Witness literally what he said and the speed and the medium, how they've done it, because you, who is a American football fan have seen that and was like, Oh my God, like, look, the back flip was unbelievable.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

If I were to critique a bit on that particular execution, I think they tried to be a little bit too clever.

Rei:

Um,

Ana:

were going to say that, but honestly, Ray, it's advertising.

Ana:

There is no such thing as too clever.

Rei:

no, no, I would, I, I disagree.

Rei:

They should have just said, they should have just said, I think they were clever in like flipping the logo and the, the, the word of witness is flipped.

Rei:

It is clever, but I think if I were them, I would have just done, just do it.

Rei:

And the logo.

Rei:

And if you know, you know, and that would have been.

Rei:

Great.

Rei:

As opposed to trying to over explain, try to be clever.

Rei:

Oh, you know, let's flip the logo.

Rei:

Let's say witness and they flip it too much too much.

Ana:

Yeah.

Ana:

I, you see, like, I hear you.

Ana:

I didn't even notice that.

Ana:

What I noticed was just the logo.

Ana:

And I didn't even pay, because it's on social, your attention spans are so short.

Ana:

So for me, intention was what got me,

Rei:

Fair enough.

Ana:

but yeah, I understand.

Ana:

I understand what you mean.

Rei:

Well, I'm a, I'm a creative, so I have to pick up on those

Ana:

I know.

Rei:

So, Nike, historically and traditionally.

Rei:

They've done a really great job of associating functionality with identity, right?

Rei:

They would pour millions of dollars in sponsoring amazing athletes all the way back to Steve Prefontaine, to to Charles, you know, many, you know, Michael Jordan and many athletes, hundreds and hundreds of athletes.

Rei:

But in the recent years, Brands that may not be spending as much money as Nike may have been, and they might not have individuals associated with those brands, but are, are succeeding in creating more presence.

Rei:

of their brand, right?

Rei:

And the products are becoming the identity as opposed to people or say, the wear being associated with the brand.

Rei:

so just to use an example, like Asics, right?

Rei:

Asics, which ironically, by the way, gave birth to Nike many, many years ago, many decades ago.

Rei:

Up until like 2021, their sales was declining.

Rei:

And in 2021, they released a pair of shoes.

Rei:

Actually, I should say two, two pairs of shoes, running shoes.

Rei:

That became very popular because they were effective in terms of performance and that started to turn them, turn their business back around and those products became the heat, you know, what you call the hero product and then those hero products created halo effect and then the brand is, you know, it's nowhere near the scale or the success of Nike.

Rei:

But it's definitely making a comeback, but they don't necessarily have a strong, I wouldn't say identity the same way that Nike has, but product is becoming their identity.

Ana:

it is.

Ana:

And I do think that Nike, certain Nike products Have become like our identity, like that original that waffle shoe and then pandas and then, Air Jordans.

Ana:

So I want to, I want to unpack that and also chime in interrupt me when as I, as I go, because there is a lot to unpack here.

Ana:

And first thing to unpack is that those products assume identity of their own.

Ana:

They're recognizable No matter where.

Ana:

And that is actually going back to your question, before is like what you'd be merchandising and product strategy for the, for, for, for the next year.

Ana:

So I would say, first of all, that a product needs to be distinguished enough.

Ana:

The brand codes, the patterns, the color palette, the stitching, the shape has needs to be able to live among knowing that it's going to be discovered on online.

Ana:

So it needs to stand out visually.

Ana:

It doesn't need to be neon pink.

Ana:

It's not about that.

Ana:

It's about having a recognizable, Shape, format, stitching, color palette, patterns.

Ana:

Something needs to be recognizable there.

Ana:

So that's number one.

Ana:

In terms of merchandising, is knowing how is that going, how is that product going to be discovered?

Ana:

So that means, do you surround that product with merch?

Ana:

Do you do it as a capsule?

Ana:

Do you do it in special packaging?

Ana:

Do you do it as a collaboration?

Ana:

how do you make an edit of those products in different channels to increase chances of its identity, discoverability, differentiation?

Ana:

So that's the answer.

Ana:

the second thing is also my question to you, when aesthetics becomes a liability, pandas are now so ubiquitous that no one wants to wear them anymore,

Ana:

almost.

Ana:

Like people say, but you know what I mean?

Ana:

They don't have that pricing power, that soft power that to command high prices on secondary marketplaces.

Ana:

The same reason as Alessandro Michele left Gucci after creating for eight years, unbelievable brand comeback through that world building, very recognizable aesthetic.

Ana:

So when does aesthetic become liability?

Rei:

When, when it becomes too ubiquitous, too.

Rei:

Almost too popular.

Rei:

And then, and, and also I think the liability is that, when it becomes popular, that other companies start copying it.

Ana:

So popularity is the enemy of identity.

Rei:

Oh,

Ana:

You know what I

Ana:

mean?

Ana:

I think that's kind of what a lot of brands are going through now, because they need popularity to have market growth, but that popularity then kills their differentiation so it becomes harder to compete.

Ana:

And you don't want, like, I think that mass brands, premium brands, have always been in that market, but luxury brands haven't.

Rei:

right, right, right.

Rei:

I mean, that's basically what happened to one of the, one of the things that happened to Nike in the recent years is that to your point, those dunks, no, the panda dunks, the double colored, dunk sneakers, that's And they just kept producing different versions of it and they just saturated.

Rei:

The market with many different versions of the same thing to a point that people started to say, you know what, this is not unique enough.

Rei:

Like I don't need to be wearing the same pair of Nike dunks that everybody in New York is wearing.

Ana:

And then Zara started copying and others started copying that sort of color palette.

Ana:

So I think it's a two edged sword because what I said before is like, you know, you have brands that don't change.

Ana:

They just don't change.

Ana:

Muji is never going to make something that's going to be like super trendy.

Ana:

You go there for basics.

Ana:

Uniqlo, they may have capsules and collaborations, that's that merchandising and product strategy that I talked about before, when they're going to create a limited edition excitement and novelty, but they're going to be very considerate of who they're working with.

Ana:

J.

Ana:

W.

Ana:

Anderson, Jill Sander, now they have Clare Wright Keller as, you know, as their designer.

Ana:

So, Rick Covins has, hasn't changed much.

Ana:

His brand or the basic product.

Ana:

So it's really going back to what we talked about last week.

Ana:

And I encourage listeners to go back to it, put this conversation in context in having the product pyramid.

Ana:

So you clearly cannot not have popular products.

Ana:

I mean, you can stay niche, of course you can, but then you're going to stay niche.

Ana:

So how do you grow through combination of the hero products of that foundational products and then that collection that is going to be your response to trends?

Ana:

I'm just saying that now it has become a question of not just a pyramid, but a portfolio.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Do you think that, so the topic around identity versus popularity, and you said that popularity kills identity or could kill identity.

Ana:

It does kill It

Rei:

It does kill.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

everyone, like look,

Ana:

what I'm trying to say, yes, you can have identity at scale.

Ana:

But when you have identity at scale, There needs to be something else and like rather than than this sounding like a jammy rambling

Ana:

You achieve identity scale through differentiation on a personal level.

Ana:

So, I'll explain.

Ana:

So that means you can either customize something, personalize something through monograms, or you can Provide differentiation through experience, through service.

Ana:

That's almost when that brand and marketing strategy comes in.

Ana:

Yes, you can limit the number of Birkings that exist out there.

Ana:

Yes.

Ana:

And that's what Hermes is doing because it takes a long time to create one and there is a wait list and so on.

Ana:

But then that's also limited by.

Ana:

What relationship you have with the brand.

Ana:

So, you know, like identity becomes almost that personal relationship.

Ana:

You can put the monogram or you have like VIP access, or you spend X amount of money, or it becomes membership, or you become invited to XYZ event and so on.

Ana:

So that's when marketing comes in to create that illusion, or maybe not always an illusion of that private, personal relationship.

Rei:

yeah,

Ana:

that you get with the brand that is actually a man's brand.

Ana:

That's the way for a brand not to lose an identity, to provide differentiation on a personal level.

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

So just to summarize this conversation and this idea of functionality access and identity access and every product exists on this spectrum, both vertically, horizontally, functionality versus identity.

Rei:

And there's certain products that can achieve both high functionality and high identity.

Rei:

And that's when those products can become in demand.

Ana:

Correct.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

I mean, some products, they could be low on functionality, but very on a high on, identity and that still could be very desirable.

Ana:

Like watches, jewelry, for example, handbags, I mean, even luxury fashion, basically luxury industry, like at some point, I mean, I don't want to say this because there is like, even when you like say among Tokyo hotels, that experience is different than any other experience, you know?

Ana:

So that's kind of very differentiated.

Ana:

So there needs to be a certain level of functionality, like even when you pay for a watch, it needs to look beautiful, be very valuable, made out of precious materials, with luxury the same.

Ana:

So there always needs to be that element of functionality in a sense, not just in a traditional sense.

Ana:

Oh, I'm using my watch to tell time.

Ana:

There are other functionalities inside of that, which is to add to

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So just to wrap up, what do you want?

Rei:

What's the one thing that you want the listeners to take away from this conversation?

Ana:

I want people to people, listeners and brand practitioners to start thinking in terms of those identity functionality mix, like, you know, how you pull levers in terms of their strategy.

Ana:

So they can decide to have a mass strategy, but then they're going to see how is my product going to be discovered in those mass markets, only marketplaces, social media, online platforms, search, and so on.

Ana:

So it's.

Ana:

There is no right or wrong answer.

Ana:

It's like knowing exactly which field you play in and what is the right go to market strategy, creative and communication for, for that.

Ana:

That's my, that's

Ana:

my

Rei:

I see my single point takeaway from this conversation.

Rei:

And I might be Reaching far with this one.

Rei:

But the, the key point that I was thinking about is different is better than better.

Rei:

What I mean by that is, yeah, you can be quote unquote better in your product functionality, but being different is.

Rei:

A more certain strategy, because if you're trying to make your product better in terms of functionality, then you get into pricing wars.

Rei:

Oh, you know, is this one cheaper?

Rei:

The same functionality.

Rei:

But cheaper or is it really better and in terms of identity to your point if you're not different Then better is a very subjective measure, right?

Rei:

So identity Defines who you are Differently who how you are different from other?

Rei:

products other brands other entities.

Rei:

So I think on both the functionality axis and the identity axis, and to answer my own question earlier, like if I were to be building a strategy for next season or next year, I would think about how can I be different?

Rei:

How can my brand be different?

Rei:

Or how can my product be different in both functionality and identity?

Rei:

That's how I would start thinking about.

Ana:

Yes.

Ana:

And, and then you went for two things.

Ana:

You entered the area of fashion because you're always looking for a difference.

Ana:

You know, this season it's short sleeves, long sleeves, a hole on a sleeve.

Ana:

You always do something different.

Ana:

So some people, like some brands don't want to compete there.

Ana:

And then the other one is you need to have a good enough product.

Rei:

Right.

Ana:

Yes, you know, you like, it needs to be good enough.

Ana:

If Levi's all of a sudden started making 501s, they didn't fit well anymore.

Ana:

They were different quality.

Ana:

It wouldn't work.

Ana:

It needs to be good enough.

Ana:

It needs to be comparative.

Rei:

At least, at least.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

Good.

Ana:

And then you can do like what Nike did and so on.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

So that is my, so let's go to hit list.

Ana:

Can I go first?

Rei:

Oh yeah.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

Sure.

Rei:

Go.

Ana:

Hit list.

Ana:

Oh my God.

Ana:

So Jaguar, but not the Jaguar rebranding, but the conversation around, especially among American right, if I may say, which is connected to our conversation with identity, because I've seen a lot.

Ana:

There is an entire MAGA aesthetic being formed.

Ana:

I saw Derek, a guy who is, a menswear, expert, and he's talking how Barbour jackets, he quoted how Barbour jackets have become Americans, right?

Ana:

symbol.

Ana:

So I think maybe we can leave for the next time, open up a little bit about that, that identity, once it goes from the domain of brands and that I intended identity, if I may say, to what happened to Burberry before.

Ana:

And to be, I would be very curious to see how the political landscape now shapes identity of brands.

Ana:

So that gets me to Jaguar and the outrage.

Rei:

It's been kind of a, an unexpected, but fascinating, conversation around it just in the last week or so or less.

Ana:

Less than a week, I would say.

Ana:

Yeah.

Ana:

Since like, maybe since Monday, Tuesday, whenever that launched people, I don't know anyone who didn't chime in.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

No, I saw it.

Rei:

I saw a bunch of posts on LinkedIn.

Rei:

Of course.

Ana:

So what's your hit?

Rei:

My, my, I have two items on my hit list.

Rei:

One is a book I just started reading.

Ana:

Hmm.

Rei:

called Revenge of the Tipping Point.

Ana:

Okay.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Do you, do you know the book?

Ana:

Well, yeah.

Rei:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rei:

I, I, I just saw it come up on my audible and I remember when I came into the, the industry 20, 25 years ago, that book was all the rage.

Rei:

Like everybody was reading it and every marketer was quoting it.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So I'm wondering if it's going to be the deja vu 25 years later that everybody's going to

Ana:

shaking my head to those who cannot see me.

Ana:

okay, let's go to your second.

Ana:

Let's go to your

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

My second one is Omurice.

Rei:

Do you

Rei:

know what that is?

Rei:

Omelette, rice, omurice.

Ana:

no, no, no,

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

So

Ana:

know what to think about it based on its name, but again, go

Rei:

so it's, it's a combination of omelette and rice.

Rei:

And maybe it's my Instagram, habit.

Rei:

And in the past couple of weeks or so, I've been getting hit with just reels after reels of amateur and professional chefs uploading these beautiful videos of them cooking this dish called Omurice.

Rei:

And what it is, it's a bed of rice, and it's like flavored rice.

Rei:

Right, and you put egg omelette on top of it, but you have to cook it in such a way that you cook the outside of the omelette just enough.

Ana:

Okay.

Ana:

So this is already, you lost me.

Rei:

No, no, no, it's fascinating.

Rei:

No, no, no.

Rei:

So let me, let me, let me stick with it.

Rei:

Let me,

Ana:

Okay, guys.

Ana:

This is for these sessions and I'm staying

Rei:

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, stick,

Ana:

you.

Ana:

So you.

Ana:

need to cook Oma

Rei:

Stick with me.

Ana:

just enough to what?

Rei:

So yeah, you, you cook the surface of the omelet just tight enough, but then you put it on the rice and you cut a slit and then it sort of melts on top of it.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And then if you search for it, there are hundreds of

Ana:

I'm going to search for it because that's what my Instagram algorithm is.

Ana:

Am

Rei:

you're missing out on a,

Ana:

try to

Rei:

missing out.

Rei:

You're, you're missing out on a piece of happiness.

Rei:

You're missing out on a

Ana:

try it?

Ana:

Did you make it?

Rei:

Oh, I know.

Rei:

I have tried it.

Rei:

I have tried

Rei:

it.

Ana:

did you manage to do it

Ana:

just

Rei:

no, no, And then,

Ana:

You know, like, honestly, Japanese, they make omelets with chopsticks.

Ana:

So this is the level of artistry we are

Ana:

talking about, but I'm intrigued enough to look it up.

Ana:

I'm not intrigued enough about Malcolm Gladwell's book, however, because there has been debunked.

Ana:

He's amazing storyteller.

Rei:

he is.

Rei:

He is.

Rei:

He is.

Rei:

He

Ana:

He's not a social scientist.

Ana:

He doesn't

Ana:

have a

Rei:

he's not.

Rei:

He's not.

Ana:

that assembly, the doctorate in sociology.

Ana:

So please don't offend me by mention

Rei:

No offense taken.

Rei:

It's not me.

Rei:

It's him.

Rei:

Right.

Rei:

Anyway.

Rei:

So let me

Ana:

It's, I love your,

Rei:

let me finish my story about omurice.

Rei:

So I got intrigued.

Rei:

You know, is it just the technique thing,

Ana:

Ah,

Rei:

it's, it's actually, it's the technique, but also it's the kind of frying pan that you use.

Rei:

And

Ana:

Okay.

Rei:

yeah, there is a town in Japan that makes these frying pans.

Rei:

Specifically

Rei:

for making this kind of omelet that is sealed on the outside, but tender on the inside so that when you put it and then cut a slit on top, it melts.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And I'm convinced that if you, if you source the frying pan from Japan and sell it on Amazon, it will sell like hotcakes.

Ana:

So you don't think that Amazon already sells

Rei:

I don't think so.

Rei:

I don't think so because yeah, I don't think so.

Rei:

I haven't seen it.

Ana:

Okay, whoever is listening from Amazon, guys,

Ana:

get on

Rei:

Or anybody, anybody who can source this fine pan from Japan.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Because I can't find a fine pan in Japan, in the States.

Rei:

And I've tried to make one with the fine pans that I have at home.

Rei:

And it didn't work.

Ana:

So next time you go to Japan, Ray,

Rei:

Yes.

Rei:

Yes.

Ana:

you'll have to explain U.

Ana:

S.

Ana:

Customs, what the hell it is that you have in your hand.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

To come back to the jargon topic.

Rei:

Why, why do you think there was

Rei:

such a.

Ana:

car, the font is very, the color, like, I think it's kind of like everyone's outraged.

Ana:

And I just wondered if it's like, are we in the age of outrage or because I'm like, who cares people?

Ana:

I mean, you know what I mean?

Ana:

It's like, at the end of the day, you can give it like a different identity, but it's still going to be a Jaguar car.

Ana:

It's still going to work in a certain way.

Ana:

It's still going to mean something

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

changing the logo and releasing a piece of advertisement, does it change the past 50 years of associations with Jaguar?

Ana:

Like, why are people so outraged?

Rei:

I mean, part of it is to be honest, Elon Musk, who by the way, is a CEO for Tesla commenting on it.

Rei:

And, you know, his, his fans, reacting to it because he commented saying, do you sell cars?

Rei:

That was his comment to the Jaguar ad.

Rei:

So part of it is, you know, Elon Musk just fanning the flame and his fans reacting to it.

Rei:

I mean, you know, he's got millions of followers.

Rei:

So him just commenting on something like that, I think does.

Rei:

Does, does impact culture, unfortunately

Ana:

So he basically amplified that.

Rei:

he amplified it.

Rei:

He amplified.

Rei:

So, yeah, I think this was posted a couple, two days

Ana:

of the United

Rei:

He, he posted two days ago, saying, do you sell cars?

Rei:

And it was viewed 5.

Rei:

I'm looking at, at X 5.

Rei:

3 million views.

Rei:

And there's like close to 10, 000 retweets of it.

Ana:

PR for Jaguar.

Rei:

Probably is probably

Ana:

PR and I think, anyway, all right.

Ana:

So it's great PR, but that kind of caught my attention.

Ana:

I think it's more interesting.

Ana:

Your, rice omelette, romlette.

Rei:

up.

Rei:

Yeah, because, because I

Ana:

know why I'm actually more interested?

Ana:

Because it shows how niche, something so niche, is actually, you know, creates a subculture that has its own products, its own technology, that pan.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

And it's all like fans and community.

Ana:

And

Ana:

now it's going to be innovation.

Ana:

Who can make it better?

Ana:

You know, you know,

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

It started with a product.

Rei:

Started with a product.

Rei:

There's a product demo, right?

Rei:

It's these chefs just cooking these amazing things.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And

Rei:

it, this

Ana:

It's like great example of brand building, I would

Rei:

exactly like, it's starting from the product and there's a clear functionality to it.

Ana:

but it's also skills, so it's a very, if you want to say it,

Rei:

That's true.

Rei:

I, identity, identity.

Rei:

So yeah, you know, I, I was just, I looked at it.

Rei:

It's like, wow, this is fascinating.

Rei:

And I thought it was apt to bring to the table.

Ana:

Amazing.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

With that, why don't we wrap up and see you in two weeks?

Rei:

Right.

Ana:

See you in two weeks.

Ana:

Thanks so

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Yeah.

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About the Podcast

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
How Brands Influence Culture
Hitmakers is an exploration of cultural influence and how brands create it. Every two weeks, Ana Andjelic, a brand executive, and Rei Inamoto, a creative entrepreneur, talk about brands that made a dent in culture - through their product, aesthetics, content, business model, or technology - and unpack how they did it.

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Rei Inamoto