Episode 4

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Published on:

12th Dec 2024

The Curious Case of Jaguar

Why some rebrands succeed and why some fail? Why do we usually dislike new logos and then slowly get used to them? What are the best and worst rebrands, and how to tell the difference? We are joined by Brian Morrissey, founder of the Rebooting, to discuss how politics, aesthetics and ethics of branding reflect themselves in media, creative fields and brand-building.

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Transcript
Ana:

It's okay, let's do this.

Ana:

Thank you very much, uh, both.

Ana:

I mean, this was an idea.

Ana:

So I'm glad you were game, Ray.

Rei:

I was game.

Rei:

I was, I was pleasantly surprised that Brian was game.

Ana:

And thank you, Brian, for making room because we arrived last night to New York and it's immediately business

Rei:

Anna, do you want to give a little bit of a setup of what we are going to talk about and the dynamic we have today?

Rei:

Yes.

Ana:

it's great for all of us to be here.

Ana:

And by all of us, I mean Brian Morrissey, who is former editor in chief and president of Digiday and now the founder of the Rebooting.

Ana:

If you're not reading Rebooting, you're missing a lot on the present and future of media technology brands and agencies.

Ana:

Sign up the rebooting.

Ana:

com.

Ana:

So welcome, Brian.

Ana:

Thank you for joining us here.

Ana:

Because Ray and I last in the last episode, we talked about, brands and their functionality and identity and the interplay between two.

Ana:

And at the end of every episode, we have a hit list.

Ana:

The hit list was, Jaguar's rebrand.

Ana:

That was two weeks ago, and the LinkedIn and Twitter or X were in up in flames among everyone who had an opinion.

Ana:

Everyone had an opinion about it.

Ana:

So that was my hit and raised hit was an omelet, a Japanese omelet.

Ana:

That's the sub genre of gazillion people.

Ana:

And I got into it after they heard

Brian:

I love Japanese omelets.

Brian:

I can talk

Ana:

I know, have you seen this?

Rei:

rice.

Rei:

Um, um.

Brian:

Um, rice.

Brian:

I thought you said omelet.

Rei:

they,

Ana:

omelette on rice.

Rei:

but on top of rice called

Brian:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Brian:

Okay, great.

Ana:

about it, Ryan.

Rei:

a,

Brian:

I didn't know about that, but, I know I always looked at anytime in Japan, the people preparing omelets with chopsticks.

Brian:

It's, like, amazing

Rei:

yes, it's, it's a,

Ana:

This is next level, because it's done in such a way you cut it and it folds over rice.

Ana:

You

Rei:

now, that's now become your obsession.

Brian:

Yeah.

Ana:

have to see, they sent me some videos.

Ana:

Yeah, I had to look it up online.

Ana:

So anyway, and then we were okay.

Ana:

So this is not dying down this conversation about Jagger and Ibran and we thought it would be good to have, especially now that, Jagger unveiled the car, and I'm sure a lot of people are going to have opinion about that as well.

Ana:

And strangely enough, the ad fits perfectly with the car, which people didn't know at the time.

Ana:

and we thought it would be a good idea to talk about, A wider context of brands and their creative and communication through the lens of media that you bring, lens of brands that both Ray and I bring, and then lens of creative that Ray is an expert in, but that I also bring in.

Ana:

So Ray, whenever you're ready, I hope this setup worked.

Ana:

And, whenever you're ready.

Rei:

So what I'm kind of curious about, and particularly, you know, the reason why we wanted to have you, Brian, and by the way Brian, I was just trying to think when the, the first time that you and I met, and I think it must have been like 20 years ago.

Brian:

It might have been, honestly.

Rei:

It must have been.

Rei:

It must have been.

Rei:

Yeah.

Brian:

Probably when you joined AKQA with,

Rei:

No, but I was, I like when I first met you, I was still at RGA 'cause I

Brian:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

Rei:

Yeah, I was still at OG and you, you must have been at, a age, maybe a age a week.

Rei:

One of those.

Rei:

Ad week?

Brian:

cub reporter, yeah.

Rei:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rei:

anyway, way back when, 20 years fast forward.

Rei:

and the, I mean, everybody's been talking about it and we are recording this on December 3rd, which is a day after the reveal of the actual product as, as, as Anna mentioned.

Rei:

But even before that, I was kind of curious about was how it became a politicized topic and how.

Rei:

So now individuals like Elon Musk would have such an enormous influence on the spread of something like this.

Rei:

So like when Anna, when you and I talked about this two weeks ago and at that time on Twitter, you only had about 5 million views on Twitter or actually X and then within like two to three days, it ballooned to over 150 million views.

Rei:

And I think it was the Elon effect.

Rei:

So the question that I actually have for you, Brian is, and this is an ongoing topic that you have on your podcast, which is about media, culture, and technology, and then just to cut to the chase.

Rei:

Is mass media dead, meaning that like this didn't spread because of mass media is spread because of an individual who happens to be enormously influential.

Rei:

And he himself happens to have the kind of reach that no mass brand or no mass media has ever had.

Rei:

At least as far as I know.

Rei:

I can tell.

Brian:

Yeah,

Rei:

and then,

Ana:

Oh, I have thoughts as well, but I'll let

Rei:

yeah, and I don't want to make it about the election or the politics or the whatever, but I feel like in the past four years, you know, are we finally seeing the death of mass media or is it just like advertising?

Rei:

Is that overblown?

Brian:

I would say yes and yes.

Brian:

I mean, we are definitely seeing the, the crack up of mass media.

Brian:

I mean, it's been happening forever, not forever, but for the, the last like decade.

Brian:

And I think the election just, Brought this all sort of front and center and you know, it's been called the podcast election But it was very clear is that the influence of mass media and particularly journalism, you know mass journalism Has been in decline and it's less effective than it has been and I think you're right on about this being a story I think timing is everything, right?

Brian:

So this happened in the aftermath of the election.

Brian:

I don't think it's a coincidence that this became a big deal when it did.

Brian:

I think if this happened a couple years ago, it wouldn't have been that big of a deal.

Brian:

I mean, to me, it's like four stories, right?

Brian:

There's a business.

Brian:

sort of case study, which is Jaguar as a brand is a classic legacy brand that's trying to reinvent itself.

Brian:

It doesn't have a path with its current approach.

Brian:

And I think its reputation is far bigger than its reality.

Brian:

It sold 64, 000 cars last year.

Brian:

This is a, this is a tiny, a tiny brand in a, in a market that doesn't have niche brands really.

Brian:

You need scale in it.

Brian:

And then there's a classic rebrand story, you know, that you and I might have been talking about when I was at ad week, I would like write about, I'd write about like logo rebrands on like ad freak.

Brian:

And there'd be like four, 4 million commenters, you know, be like, this sucks, this sucks.

Brian:

And.

Brian:

you know, people love to pile on rebrand story, but I think like you're saying, like the bigger, you know, the thing that caused this to be much bigger is that it's sort of a story about the changing media landscape with with X.

Brian:

Twitter has always punched above its weight, right?

Brian:

As it didn't, it didn't lead to a lot of traffic or anything.

Brian:

And it was always kind of like a little bit of a niche thing because it

Rei:

Mm hmm.

Brian:

But, you know, particularly with Elon Musk, changing, it now being X, it has a conservative bent without a doubt.

Brian:

Now, I think depending on your political persuasion, you could say, well, that's just sort of rebalancing because the mainstream media is overwhelmingly progressive, et cetera, et cetera.

Brian:

But I don't think it's any coincidence that it took off there.

Brian:

And then spread, right?

Brian:

It's spread into quote unquote mass media, and it did become a bigger story than it was.

Brian:

And then the final thing I would say is, you know, cultural institutions are all under sort of duress right now, whether that's they're the ones like with with progressive leanings, right?

Brian:

You see the attacks on academia, on journalism, on media overall, even going into like government, I really feel like.

Brian:

and I think advertising is next.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

I mean, you saw this with, with the Bud Light controversy, and let's be real, you, you both have been in advertising agencies like quite a bit in your careers, right?

Brian:

That's not, that's not a place for MAGA hats, right?

Brian:

And, and the people who are, and the people who are ascendant right now know that.

Brian:

They know that really well.

Brian:

They know that an RGA, I mean think about it, like RGA over the pandemic had what is it?

Brian:

It was like prison reform advocate as, as the CMO.

Brian:

Like this is not like an industry that is known for

Rei:

I did not know that.

Rei:

That I did not know.

Brian:

Yeah, I mean like everyone went kind of crazy during, during the, the pandemic.

Brian:

And I think that advertising and branding, all this, yeah.

Brian:

All the MAGA people are going to be coming after you guys, so good luck.

Brian:

I'd,

Rei:

they're not

Brian:

close, I'd close down your Twitter accounts.

Rei:

Come on.

Rei:

They've already come after you.

Rei:

Brian . They're already after you.

Brian:

I'm trying to operate a middle ground.

Brian:

no, I mean, I think that that is, look, when, when Jaguar came out with this, this, what did they call it?

Brian:

Exuberant modernism.

Brian:

Is that what it is?

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

You know, it got roundly attacked by the usual suspects on, on X.

Brian:

and to me, I don't know.

Brian:

It looked like, like a typical ad agency stuff to me.

Brian:

I'm like, I was like really shocked that, that something like this would get people so bothered.

Rei:

Anna, what do you, what do you think?

Rei:

Mm-hmm

Ana:

Well, that's what, like, I'm going to build up on that.

Ana:

I first saw it on LinkedIn and not Twitter just because I spend less time on Twitter than I do on LinkedIn.

Ana:

And for me, it's also what today you were saying is mass media.

Ana:

That for me, it was more like how different expert communities weighed in, you know, people on brand side, on agency side, on creative side.

Ana:

side.

Ana:

Everyone.

Ana:

You know how LinkedIn is networked.

Ana:

You don't really have, you have influencers there, but it's kind of what the mess thing.

Ana:

Things don't go viral the way they go on Twitter,

Rei:

Mm-hmm

Ana:

by design.

Ana:

But the fact that they've seen from all angles in my feed.

Ana:

Was like, oh, maybe this is a new mass aggregation of all these different niches.

Ana:

So that's, that's my point.

Ana:

Number one, the second point, number two is like both of you built up, like already mentioned it, that they want to build upon is that basically as far as rebrands go, this is far from the verse.

Ana:

Like gap rebrand was horrible for a minute with that ball, like box on, or even people forget that that Netflix was, was one called quickster.

Ana:

You know, and, and, you know, if we stay, if we stay with the traditional brands, you have like Tropicana changing, like a lot of brands did change their logos.

Ana:

And there was a minor outreach among creative and advertising types for a minute.

Ana:

And then what actually gained skill here is the, is the moment is the zeitgeist.

Ana:

So it's, it's, it's.

Ana:

I often say when the, when the time is right, anyone can start a trend, when it's not, no one can.

Ana:

I think, Ray, that I even once told you that in Japan, I heard this expression, Kuki wo yomu.

Ana:

I don't know how I'm pronouncing it right.

Ana:

Like, kuki wo yomu.

Ana:

A Japanese guy said, it's kind of, how do you read a room?

Rei:

Oh, cookie.

Ana:

Yes, I'm not, I'm

Ana:

not pronouncing it.

Ana:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, read the room and like they used to explain.

Ana:

Oh, you know that How do you read the room in the sense of like promoting an idea or and also I think this is what it is Everything it right now in culture is so politicized And any sort of output is viewed through the lens, you're either Vogue or Maga, in a good old social media dichotomy, you know.

Ana:

So in a sense, the moment you had this ad is like inoffensive.

Ana:

People can like it, not like it, but it's not.

Ana:

But it was read and like, oh, it's androgynous, and the colors are exuberant, and it's futuristic, and it's not nostalgic, and it's not heritage and history that, that Jagger is known for and so on.

Ana:

So interpretation is immediately through political lens.

Ana:

So for me, the question was, so what do, what do brands do now in their cultural output?

Ana:

they, when interpretation of no matter what they put out, because the atmosphere is so politically charged, that is going to interpret it in a certain way.

Rei:

I, I think that the, the, the thing that Brian, that you mentioned timing is everything, and this is totally speculation, but my guess is that there must have been a conversation about launching this at CES.

Rei:

As opposed to our Basel, but I would imagine that the conversation must have been that all CS is too crowded.

Rei:

There'll be too many things launching.

Rei:

So let's find another timing.

Rei:

And also let's reach out to a crowd that they may not have reached out to perhaps younger, perhaps, you know, more hip.

Rei:

Hipster hip crowd at places like a Basel in Miami.

Rei:

And then it just so happens that this year coincided with the presidential election and Trump winning.

Rei:

And that was the timing of the announcement of the launch was a few weeks after that.

Rei:

So I don't think it was intentional that it was.

Rei:

Right after the presidential election, I think he, I, I could almost tell that they must have gone through the logic of, oh, like, let's do something.

Rei:

I don't see.

Rei:

Yes.

Rei:

Oh, it's too crowded.

Rei:

And then let's find another timing.

Rei:

And it just happens that he was close to a political moment.

Rei:

So he was already a hot topic.

Rei:

And then it just happens that those things were close enough that he caught on.

Rei:

that the kind of Zeitgeist and on top of that, I think, you know, just one individual in Elon Musk, who is essentially a super spreader and he was the instigator of this whole explosion.

Rei:

And this is only speculation, but I kind of wonder if it wasn't for Elon Musk tweeting.

Rei:

A, had it become the kind of, attention that it created, and B, if it became as politicized as it has, has become.

Brian:

Yeah, I think that's a great point because, I mean, sometimes you lose sight, I mean, Jaguar is in a really weird position, right?

Brian:

Like, it, it's not working as a brand, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, and they're switching over to all EV, okay?

Brian:

And like, it's doing it at a time when EV sales are, are struggling, right?

Brian:

They have to shut down production.

Brian:

All of all of next year, they're not gonna, they're not gonna sell a car next year, right?

Brian:

and they came up with a concept car.

Brian:

They didn't come out with like a production car.

Brian:

This is a concept.

Brian:

This is not going that nobody is going to be sitting in that car.

Brian:

I don't know what they're going to produce or when they're going to produce it.

Brian:

They didn't produce anything.

Brian:

This is just a concept.

Brian:

And so to think that all of this is over a concept car from.

Ana:

For a brand that no one even mentioned for many, many, many years, you know, it's not like you're talking about Tesla or something.

Brian:

right.

Brian:

And they're, they're trying to, they're trying to swap out their customer base.

Brian:

I mean, their customer base is in their like late fifties, right?

Brian:

They were there at best.

Brian:

I guess there was what, like an English heritage brand.

Brian:

And I think that that's where it's sort of tapped into the, think part of this whole MAGA thing is.

Brian:

Is there's always nostalgia and a lot of these conservative and populist movements, and there's a lot of nostalgia of the way things were now forget the fact that this legacy brand has no modern function.

Brian:

It does not have a clear path in in the modern auto market.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

And so a lot of what people, I guess, get upset about a lot of times when it comes to these, these old brands is.

Brian:

Some memory of them in the past, not their actual, you know, present because, you know, people are saying, Oh, you know, this is this is a heritage of like of England.

Brian:

And this is that the royal family had Jaguars.

Brian:

It's owned by Tata.

Brian:

I mean, what are we talking about here?

Brian:

Like, Tata owns this thing.

Brian:

It's being, like, carried by Land Rover.

Brian:

But they're trying to swap out their customer set.

Brian:

And so, they can afford, I think it's an interesting branding story though, because they can afford, how do you swap out your, your customer set, right?

Brian:

They, they need to appeal to a totally different customer.

Brian:

They're going to try to get this, this thing that's going to be like a hundred thousand dollar plus per car, go ultra luxury and to be all EV.

Brian:

I mean, I don't know.

Brian:

That's an interesting branding and business pivot to me beyond all the political stuff.

Ana:

And then I would add to that, sorry, I do think That is something else.

Ana:

I don't think that necessarily it was like CES is too crowded.

Ana:

I think they on purpose want to align themselves with the art and the creative class crowd and that's who they want to attract and that's where that crowd is.

Ana:

So that didn't, that's my read.

Ana:

You may as well be right, but I made it was that they wanted, like, with the color, with the art, with the, with the, with the global creative class, we are going to actually launch a car at the art event rather than a tech event, because this is such a radical reinvention going electric.

Ana:

In, in conceptually going electric that I also think that they also wanted to kind of peel off their category completely.

Rei:

Hmm.

Ana:

But that said, if they launched it in a different time, and in a different context, I don't think it would be as much of a uproar.

Rei:

I, and again, this is in hindsight in just, you know, it's easy for me to say after the fact, but I think they said too much during the initial launch teaser.

Rei:

And I watched, the launch event video yesterday, they're saying too much.

Rei:

You know, and when it comes to the product,

Brian:

They don't have any in the show.

Brian:

It's like, it's like in journalism, they say show don't tell, but like, if you don't have much to show that you're going to, you're going to do a lot of talking, right?

Brian:

Like,

Rei:

they're doing too much talking,

Rei:

let the, let the product, yeah.

Rei:

And let the, and then leave it at that.

Rei:

You know, they, I, I think that they are just kind of shooting themselves in the foot by saying too much.

Rei:

And when it comes to the actual product design of it, Hey, like Brian said, this is a concept car.

Rei:

So nobody's able to drive it.

Rei:

Nobody's able to buy it.

Rei:

So nobody's going to have an opinion about it.

Rei:

Well, you know.

Rei:

They aren't able to review it.

Rei:

I, I happened just to, to prepare for this conversation.

Rei:

I happened to watch maybe two 20 minute videos yesterday about like car experts, reviewing the concept car.

Rei:

One guy was this old British guy who owns a collection of, classic cars.

Rei:

And three of the cars that he owns happens to be jogger, Jaguar cars.

Rei:

And I was surprised that he was actually quite, He had criticism about the branding of it, but when he came to the making, the make of it, he was more positive than I had expected it.

Rei:

And then another guy who was a younger, American car expert talked about the, the, the, the new design and he was, To my surprise, quite positive about it.

Rei:

So I think they Jagger tried too hard to hype this up and they said too much by saying things that didn't really make any typical marketing, advertising.

Rei:

You know, jargons and blah, blah.

Rei:

blah.

Rei:

And then on top of that, at the event as well, you know, this, chief creative officer of Jaguar came out and spoke for 20 minutes about the details of the car.

Rei:

no offense to him.

Rei:

And I'm, you know, I'm sure he's a very respected and capable designer.

Rei:

but I was like, I was cringing.

Rei:

I was cringing.

Rei:

I just stopped talking and let the car do the talking.

Brian:

I would be interested in both of you to how would you handle this kind of situation where you have to swap out, it seems very clear they want to swap out their existing customers for new customers, like they don't see a path with their existing customers.

Brian:

And so they're going to swap them out.

Brian:

They have to get, they have to get younger.

Brian:

They have to be more relevant to them.

Brian:

And they have to move the price point up.

Brian:

and on top of that, they have to deal with the fact that they're not going to sell any cars for a year in doing that change.

Brian:

How do you go about that?

Rei:

I would say that.

Rei:

So when I saw the actual product revealed again, I'm not a car guy, but even to a regular Joe, like myself, I was surprised in a good way that they departed so far from what Jaguar was known for, from a design perspective, in terms of the shape, the form, the angle, you know, it's very angular as opposed to curvy.

Rei:

the colorway, the London blue color and Miami pink color were completely away from the existing color palette as far as I, I know about the brand and.

Rei:

It was just an unusual choice, but I applaud the, the, the boldness in terms of departing from what they were known for.

Rei:

And to, to answer your question, Brian, I think that they should have just stuck with it.

Rei:

And just the fact that the product itself is such a departure from the past, I think would again, this is speculation only, but I think could have.

Rei:

At least started to talk to a new audience.

Rei:

You know, you might have alienated their old audience, the middle, you know, people in their mid fifties or above who comes to the, the brand with nostalgia.

Rei:

And I think the.

Rei:

The design of it could have spoken, maybe not as loudly as the cultural backlash that we are seeing, but at least to start targeting a new set of people as opposed to the, the, the old segment.

Rei:

again, it's easy for me to say after the fact, I think they try to say too much about the brand and try to make up a brand when they should have start with the product.

Rei:

Stick with the product and let the product speak for itself.

Rei:

Yeah,

Ana:

they think like, I

Brian:

Ana, you, you have experience in, in, in this with legacy brands,

Ana:

That's what I was thinking, Ray, as you were talking.

Ana:

So for them, they clearly made, did an analysis.

Ana:

They're like, what if we did a car that's still appealing to our old customers and just modern it?

Ana:

And they're like, this is not going to be enough.

Ana:

Like, we're just going to scrap everything.

Ana:

We're going to use the name.

Ana:

It's almost like a, it's like almost like licensing.

Ana:

It's intellectual property.

Ana:

It's just like, it's just the name.

Ana:

And they're like, our product Is going to be completely new.

Ana:

We are going to lead with the product led branding that we, that we talked about before, and we're just going to say it's Jaguar, but it can be any other name.

Ana:

Almost.

Ana:

It's so such a radical departure, but I think that was the matter of their survival or of like what Tata figured was, you know what, it doesn't really matter.

Ana:

We are not making money.

Ana:

We're not going to make money out of those people.

Ana:

If we want to keep this brand going, it needs to look completely different.

Ana:

So Brian, you want to chime in because then I'll continue.

Brian:

Well, I'm just wondering, what's the point of a brand then, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, do you have to, it's not like, they obviously have to evolve, right?

Brian:

All brands have to evolve and stuff and they're all made up, let's be real.

Brian:

But like, if you're just going to, if you're just going to take a name that people like recognize and take the authentic brands group, like PE playbook and be like, all right, well, who cares?

Brian:

People it's lodged in people's brains somewhere.

Brian:

We can just slap it on whatever.

Brian:

like what, what is the sort of point of,

Ana:

But there is a brand strength in that.

Ana:

There is a set of associations and emotions still, and now they just want to have a new set of associations and emotions.

Ana:

Exactly.

Rei:

their old image and be able to target a new set of audience and it's Cadillac,

Brian:

Oh, I thought you were going to say the Yugo.

Rei:

Which one?

Rei:

Who?

Brian:

That's a deep

Ana:

it's like, it's a Yugoslav card.

Ana:

It was the only card that was exported to us market.

Rei:

Oh, really?

Rei:

Yeah,

Ana:

yeah, yeah.

Ana:

yeah.

Rei:

I think it was some, some, some insider joke that I'm not

Rei:

aware of.

Ana:

Google example.

Brian:

You didn't get them in Japan.

Brian:

You guys.

Rei:

No, no, definitely not.

Rei:

Obviously not.

Rei:

Obviously not.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

But just to, just to finish the train of thought that I, that I had, cause about, 20 years ago, this was like around 2000, one of the first accounts that I ever worked on when I was a junior designer was Cadillac and it's this classic old 1960s American car brand that was popular among grandpas, you know, in Midwest.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And like from the late nineties to like 2000 ish.

Rei:

And I worked on it for a couple of years, so I didn't see through, but they were deliberately trying to shift away from being a car for grandpas in Midwest, quite literally in Detroit.

Rei:

I went to school in Michigan, you know, like all grandpas are literally driving it.

Rei:

And then also around that time, and I can't remember exactly the timeline, but the big SUVs started to come out and like the hip hop crowd, some crowd started to embrace these, these humongous, SUVs.

Rei:

So.

Rei:

Around that time, around 2000, Cadillac deliberately, and then they didn't do a drastic rebrand.

Rei:

It was a gradual thing that they did over probably about 10 years or so.

Rei:

And I would say they did a relatively good job of shifting from that dusty old grandpa image to You know, a hipper, cooler crowd who listens to hip hop and, and also like around that time, like, you know, 20 plus years ago, they had a product placement in the matrix, the first matrix movie.

Rei:

I don't know if you guys remember, but it was kind of a, a, a shock for a lot of people because nobody thought of a Cadillac placed in a sci fi movie like the matrix.

Rei:

Thanks.

Rei:

Thanks.

Rei:

Thanks.

Rei:

And it was the first time in a long time, if not ever, a car like a Cadillac was portrayed in a, in a heroic way.

Rei:

And I think they did a pretty good job of transitioning from a legacy.

Rei:

I don't know if they were dying the same way that, the Jaguar is.

Rei:

But they definitely made a conscious, deliberate decision to make that transition from an old image to a new one.

Rei:

And I think they did it relatively well.

Brian:

but I wonder whether that's possible now in this kind of fragmented, like I call

Ana:

that's what I wanted to say.

Ana:

The time was different.

Ana:

Brands always reinvented themselves.

Ana:

They, I don't think, I think I'd look is an amazing example, but it's not the only one, because when you look at the little brands I worked for, like how Banana Republic reinvented itself.

Ana:

self from being like this upcycled military garb safari into 1990s, metrosexual, like yuppie crowd, you know, that was a complete and people embraced it because, you know, it was more gradual and Brian, as you said, like the fragmented versus mass.

Ana:

And then when you look at Esprit as well, and That's what Brian asked earlier.

Ana:

The only way for brands to survive is if they're radically reinvent themselves or they're going to stay small.

Ana:

So, because look at across luxury brands, do you think that what they're producing now has anything to do?

Ana:

with what they were producing when the founders were alive.

Ana:

It's just that it happened over a period of 10 years, for as, as your example of Cadillac was, or even more.

Ana:

Like how you slowly push, you start making, oh, for let's take Louis Vuitton.

Ana:

You start from luggage, you start adding ready to wear, Marc Jacobs introduced that, and you start playing with it.

Ana:

They didn't have ready to wear, they didn't have any clothes before that, Louis Vuitton.

Ana:

It was a, it was a travel, it was a luggage brand,

Ana:

you

Rei:

do you, do you think the point that Brian, that you're making or the question that you're asking is you don't think it's possible potentially for a Jaguar, for Jaguar to reinvent itself Because A, the media landscape is too fragmented and B, culture moves too quickly.

Rei:

Is, is that, is that sort of

Brian:

Well, I guess it's like the playbook I think has to be totally different.

Brian:

And also we have to come to terms with the fact that a lot of brands need to go to hospice care.

Brian:

Like, I mean, let's be real, like, we simply have too many of them.

Brian:

We can't keep adding these brands that mean something because we keep inventing new brands.

Brian:

And so, like, some are going to have to go away.

Brian:

Like, I'm like, that's just the natural order of things.

Brian:

We created a lot of brands in the 20th century.

Brian:

We have to be okay that some are, you know, going to go to the, you know, Brand place in the sky.

Brian:

Like, I mean, that's, that's going to be the reality.

Brian:

And I think we're seeing a lot of brands that are trying to cling to some kind of relevance or invent some kind of relevance.

Brian:

and it's, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of messy, I think.

Rei:

but do, do you think that would be a choice for the executives at Tata and Jaguar to say,

Rei:

or, or,

Ana:

can I tell you something great from my own experience?

Ana:

Rebrands are incredibly expensive.

Ana:

Sometimes it's easier to just scrap it all and do it again.

Ana:

It's like people underestimate, executives underestimate the amount of Material investment, technological investment in time and it takes three to five years.

Ana:

So Jaguar could have done that.

Ana:

Could have.

Ana:

They could have said, let's keep the shell.

Ana:

Let's make transition to electric.

Ana:

They're like, you know what?

Ana:

Forget it.

Ana:

We are just going to create a completely new design.

Ana:

With a completely new interior.

Ana:

The only thing we are keeping is the name, which is the same with authentic brands group do at the end of the day, with Brooks Brothers, with Vince, with like Reebok, all those brands.

Ana:

What are they doing?

Ana:

They're doing some collaborations.

Ana:

They're milking the cow as they go because they don't want to invest.

Ana:

So that's one model, but Jaguar didn't want to go that route at all.

Ana:

If you go that route, be ready to invest hundreds of millions or maybe automotive brands.

Ana:

And for, for retail brands, for banana, for Esprit, that is the investment of tens of millions over the course of three to five years.

Ana:

Because imagine not only you need to change the quality, not only you need to change the design, what we did at Esprit Elevate, then you change distribution, then you penetrate the new market, then you spend marketing dollars on carpet bombing for a year across mass media or everything.

Ana:

And then you do that for five years.

Ana:

That is the thing.

Ana:

When a rubber hits the road, it's all about the money.

Rei:

And the, I would say, and the ego.

Rei:

8,

Ana:

You

Brian:

I mean, nobody's, nobody, nobody's gonna rally the truce with we're gonna milk this until we can't milk it anymore.

Brian:

I mean, we're gonna try to reinvent it.

Brian:

But at the same time, like I actually went I was I was wrong.

Brian:

It's like, in the US, it's sold at 88, 284 cars.

Rei:

000.

Brian:

This is like a miniature.

Brian:

Like brand and so I mean, I think about it in media like media has all so many of these brands that are like zombies.

Brian:

They're like, so I give them credit for trying.

Brian:

I mean, this is to me is like, it's a Hail Mary the end of the day for this brand.

Brian:

I mean, because it's the way it's going.

Brian:

It's like, what is going to change?

Brian:

Like, what is actually going to change to make this brand?

Brian:

It's like, As relevant as it was during its heyday, very little, right?

Brian:

So you can either like cater to it and care for it like in hospice or you can try to like turn stuff around.

Brian:

Like, I don't know if that's gonna work.

Brian:

Like, I mean, it seems like it's trying to become like Maserati, like, you know, like you don't see many Maseratis around.

Rei:

I'm not

Brian:

I I believe so.

Ana:

so if they do have, they probably have already set up production and all of that.

Ana:

So they're just saying, hey, let's just use Jaguar name and use the production that we already have.

Ana:

And we're going to make more money because Jaguar brand still has in its mind some sort of

Brian:

I mean, they're investing in an entire new, like, you know, EV infrastructure for this.

Brian:

And so, I mean, auto is a

Ana:

don't, then they're going to say, Hey, we're going to do something new, but we're going to slap an old brand to that.

Ana:

They're going to do better with the Jaguar name than with some other name.

Ana:

With the Tata, Tata electric name.

Ana:

You know what I'm saying?

Ana:

It's like they're just taking the best of both worlds.

Brian:

what did you, let me ask, let me ask about the design.

Brian:

What did you think?

Brian:

I like, let's go, let's have

Rei:

The car design or the brand design?

Brian:

No, the brand design.

Rei:

Brand

Brian:

is a logo talk.

Rei:

Yeah, no, I thought it was such a missed opportunity to, if they were to rebrand, they should have kept the cat, the leaping Jaguar and yeah, they should have, if anything was to be removed, it should have been the typeface, not the icon,

Ana:

car?

Rei:

the car, I'm kind of indifferent about it, neutral about it.

Rei:

I'm not overtly critical of it.

Rei:

I, I, like I said earlier, I do.

Rei:

respect the level of departure that they were willing to take and unusual design choices in some places, you know, especially in the interior of the car.

Ana:

But that's the only thing you can influence because so many cars look the same because of performance requirements and so on.

Ana:

So you can really design the interior or I don't know colorways or tech inside.

Ana:

that is for me.

Ana:

It doesn't look differentiated.

Ana:

I haven't been

Ana:

inside.

Ana:

You know, so that is the, that is, but also the question is, can you really differentiate that much these days in terms of cars, stopping short of creating a cyber truck?

Ana:

But even when you look at the cyber truck generations, they all look very similar.

Brian:

I don't know.

Brian:

It's got Cybertruck vibes though.

Brian:

I don't

Brian:

know.

Brian:

It

Ana:

think that's how cars look, will look now.

Ana:

That's

Brian:

I mean, I, I will say this, like, I'm not like any car, I'm, I, I have an Altima, Altima, so, I, but like, I,

Ana:

it's, you

Ana:

don't even have it, at least, or whatever, right?

Brian:

but like, I don't understand, like car design itself, like, I'm glad that they're at least trying like new kinds of car design.

Brian:

Like, it seems like everything's, like, was very, and I, you know, I understand it's, it's hard to manufacture something new, but at least they're trying, like, it looks different

Rei:

Definitely enough.

Rei:

Definitely enough.

Brian:

Yeah, I mean, I will say this for the Cybertruck.

Brian:

When you see them going around, you notice it still.

Brian:

Like, it's a little garish.

Brian:

I'm not sure what kind of statement it's making.

Brian:

but you at least notice it.

Brian:

So, I think that's, that's

Rei:

I, I, I felt that when I saw the new Jaguar cars revealed, I sort of felt the same way that I felt about Tesla Cybertruck the first time

Rei:

was like, what the hell is this?

Rei:

But then a year or two years have passed and I see them in my neighborhood running around I think like the first few months, people were almost ashamed to admit that they wanted to buy it.

Rei:

But then now the people who drive, no offense and no judgment, but, but people who drive them, I think they are proud of driving the Cybertruck.

Rei:

And then my sense about the Jaguar car.

Rei:

in two years time is that it will get mocked when it first comes out, but I think there'll be enough people who will buy it.

Rei:

It's not, I don't know if we will be enough people to revive the brand to what it was, but I think enough

Ana:

You just need the same thing, Ray, that you had with Elon Musk and his ex post, like tweet.

Ana:

You would have, you need one person, you need a Kardashian to sit in a custom color and, you know, and there you go.

Ana:

And I know we have Brian only for a couple of minutes, so for me, the bigger picture of all of this is Do.

Ana:

Other categories need to go electric, literally, like scrap everything they've been known for because I know in retail brands have been doing that.

Ana:

Look, look at Abercrombie's revival.

Ana:

They scrapped that, teenage model abuse, the preppy aesthetic.

Ana:

And they're like, we're just going to do what is popular now.

Ana:

And we're going to do it faster than anyone else.

Ana:

So our chase is like, chase is, is, is retail term.

Ana:

When you quickly produce something and people are wearing is, and we're just going to do like, What do customers need?

Ana:

They need dresses in the summer, make a lot of dresses in the summer.

Ana:

So literally be super responsive to market.

Ana:

And to an extent, that's what is pretty.

Ana:

That's what banana does.

Ana:

That's what a lot of the brands that you see, that had a point aesthetic point of view back when they were founded are, they're just going to make popular stuff.

Ana:

And I feel like that this is, this is our own future across different categories, but all you have is a name, but what you're actually creating is what is going to sell.

Rei:

At the moment, at the given moment.

Ana:

Responsiveness to market.

Ana:

Exactly.

Brian:

Yeah, I think it's harder though in, in auto, right?

Brian:

I mean, this is an industry in complete change and they're becoming software driven.

Brian:

You know, there's a great viral video of the former Ford CEO talking about how much they screwed up software because they, they, you know, they bid all of their suppliers against one another and they always do this and they did the same thing with software and that's where Elon Musk got them because he took the Apple approach and it's like all in one.

Brian:

And they've got people writing software, different, different, providers that don't talk to each other.

Brian:

And I think, you know, it's, it's just a major shift going on in the auto industry where, I mean, I feel like the branding stuff is it's interesting and it's great to talk about, but like, There, this is an industry that is, and we've seen it with the transition to EVs.

Brian:

I mean, it's been a disaster for a lot of these companies.

Brian:

and the subsidies going away are not going to be good, at least in the U S.

Brian:

So, I mean, you, you, you both talk about it a lot is, is it is ultimately going to be a product, that, that decides this, not, not some kind of video,

Brian:

or I guess it's film because it was very popular.

Brian:

You know, it's expensive when they call it a film.

Rei:

True.

Rei:

By the way, it's it's, it's rumored that it was an in house agency.

Rei:

No

Brian:

Oh, good.

Brian:

See that?

Brian:

I would like at age.

Brian:

You could have like a column and at age about see this proves that in housing is the worst.

Ana:

Oh, the bravest CMOs.

Ana:

And yeah, well, thank

Brian:

Hey, it was brave.

Brian:

It was brave.

Rei:

It was brave.

Rei:

It was

Brian:

Let's let's give credit where credit is due too much too much bravery and marketing is not very brave.

Brian:

This one was brave.

Brian:

They at least got attacked by

Brian:

a lot of people.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Awesome.

Rei:

Thanks.

Rei:

Thanks for stopping by Brian.

Brian:

Awesome.

Brian:

Thank you

Brian:

so much.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

it's fun.

Ana:

So, Ray, do you want to move into hits?

Ana:

I

Rei:

before that, why don't we do our summary first?

Rei:

What?

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Uh, takeaway.

Ana:

Yes, please.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

So I think one thing that you said, made me think, which is the electrification that's happening to the automotive industry.

Rei:

Does the same thing need to happen to other industries as well?

Rei:

And you talked about the apparel industry and how the companies that once had a clear point of view and clear aesthetic design aesthetic, of their products are now shifting to being reacting to the moment.

Rei:

pumping out products that they think they would sell.

Rei:

And audience seems, I mean, you know, sheen is, is sort of the classic example of a company that didn't really have a point of view about design,

Ana:

but

Ana:

so unfortunate thing is sort of the luxury brands now, you know, when they started streetwear and sneakers and, I didn't mean the literally electrification.

Rei:

Yeah, no, I, I get it.

Rei:

I get

Ana:

no, no, I know you didn't either.

Ana:

I just want to go back to, you know, how Bob Dylan plugged in guitar and that's like went electric because it was a completely new genre that was coming.

Ana:

So in a sense, I think that like electric cars are a new genre of cars.

Ana:

So I, that's what I'm thinking.

Ana:

Like, what does it look like going electric in hospitality, maybe in experience, in retail, in a pair in sports, you know, what would it mean going in for Nike going like, like, what is that change of the organizing principle of the industry?

Ana:

And I saw a lot of that in retail and that how brands are around just in the name, not in product design,

Rei:

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Ana:

or not even in advertising.

Rei:

yeah, yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So I think my.

Rei:

The takeaway and my curiosity is what's the next industry that needs a paradigm shift.

Rei:

When Tesla came onto the market, they didn't necessarily change the car itself.

Rei:

I mean, they did change it with

Rei:

software being

Ana:

It was our Cadillac story.

Ana:

It was a slow shift.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Apple didn't necessarily change personal computing the second time that Steve Jobs came back, But they changed the perception of computers

Ana:

But also the

Ana:

phone, they

Rei:

yeah, the iMac, the iPhone.

Rei:

the

Ana:

was that paradigm shift when everyone went from flip phones to, to

Ana:

smartphones.

Rei:

true.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So what this conversation took me to the mind, my mind went was what are the next industries that could use that paradigm shift?

Ana:

For me, you know what my takeaway is actually?

Ana:

What is the rebrand strategy?

Ana:

When you know,

Rei:

Hmm.

Ana:

That continuity and linearity, it's not going to, like linear change, incremental change is not going to get you where you need to get.

Ana:

You're not going to attract new customers doing, but what Cadillac did, you're not going to attract your customers by slowly shifting your aesthetic or having a marketing campaign or moving the focus of your dollars towards younger audience.

Ana:

That's not going to cut it.

Ana:

When you really need in order to stay around, you really need that Paradigm shift, which means in order to reach new audience, you need a new product.

Rei:

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rei:

So I would say the, the,

Ana:

me, it's more of a survival strategy, not just growth strategy.

Ana:

I want to say, how do you remain in the market period?

Ana:

Not grow

Ana:

in the market, remain in the market, What is the rebrand strategy going on?

Ana:

Because I think you're going to see way more Jaguars than Cadillac rebrands across industries.

Rei:

possibly, yeah, possibly.

Rei:

So I think just to finish the conversation about Jaguar, again, it's easy to say this in hindsight after the fact, but their strategy, their rebranding shouldn't have been rebranding.

Rei:

It should have been the product strategy, you know, product reintroduction strategy, as opposed to rebranding strategy.

Ana:

I agree with that.

Ana:

I actually agree with that because like I think and that's more and more I think about it is that that product led branding is what is going to make brands survive.

Ana:

At the end of the day what makes Abercrombie successful is the fitness of the Great, much better than before.

Ana:

The quality is up and then you find designs you want.

Ana:

So it really goes back to, do you have that quality product?

Ana:

Do you have a desirable product?

Ana:

And then how do you build communication and brand around that?

Ana:

And the other day, what, what Nike did was like, they sped up Pegasus.

Ana:

And you know, like when you see who are Nike and Adidas competitors, they're product innovations.

Ana:

And that's why I don't necessarily think that Nike and Adidas have anything to worry about is to reach the scale.

Ana:

You, you do need product innovation, but you also need categories, and you need the fashion aspect of it, and you need other sort of verticals to really succeed.

Ana:

But, but on was product innovation at the end

Rei:

yeah, definitely.

Rei:

Definitely.

Rei:

Cool.

Ana:

Yeah,

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Shall we move to our hit list?

Ana:

yes, and honestly, you know what like I didn't plan this.

Ana:

We arrived yesterday from Miami and this is what's waited for me It's I know it's here

Rei:

nice.

Ana:

So that I

Ana:

have because it's yeah, I know it's like I was like very happy to see it in In in in like alive, so I will say make

Rei:

Is that the, is that the final final copy?

Ana:

Yes, that's the I got 10 copies gratis So, I'm gonna have in Paris on Monday, the book launch, so I'll have some for the journalists and they're sending me some to put down there.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So you're, you're having your event in Paris next week.

Ana:

On December 9th, hosted by Vivendi.

Rei:

Oh, okay.

Rei:

Okay.

Rei:

Well, congratulations and good luck with that live event.

Rei:

I wish I, I wish I could say I could be there, but I can't.

Rei:

So I

Ana:

I wish you, maybe in New York, there's gonna be one in

Ana:

London and then in January and then New York.

Ana:

Absolutely.

Rei:

Oh yeah.

Rei:

So when I met up with you this summer, you were talking about, finishing the book well earlier in the summer.

Rei:

And yeah, it was, It's coming out in the fall and now finally it's here.

Rei:

So congratulations.

Rei:

I know it's a lot of work to write a book.

Rei:

So

Rei:

yeah.

Rei:

Well, looking forward to, seeing the actual copy in, in person soon.

Ana:

Yes.

Ana:

Absolutely.

Ana:

Thank you,

Rei:

So my hit list is a tiny discovery that, that I came across just a couple of days ago.

Rei:

And it's not that groundbreaking, but I was quite fascinated by it.

Rei:

And it's a, an old podcast.

Rei:

That's been around for a couple of years by Rick Rubin.

Rei:

And he's got this podcast called Tetragrammaton, where he interviews musicians, artists, creators.

Rei:

A lot of, you know, famous, creators.

Rei:

And recently he started a segment or new version of the podcast called unexpected conversations.

Ana:

Mm hmm.

Ana:

Mm

Rei:

And there have been two of those episodes.

Rei:

One was in September and then another one just came out this past week.

Rei:

And it was a conversation with Rick Rubin himself

Rei:

with this guy named Richard Feynman.

Rei:

Do you know who that is?

Ana:

Richard?

Ana:

Mm

Rei:

Feynman.

Rei:

Feynman.

Rei:

He's a Nobel prize.

Rei:

winning physicist.

Rei:

He's dead.

Rei:

He died many, many years ago, like 20 years ago or so.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

But it's a conversation between Rick Rubin and this deceased person.

Rei:

And then when you look at the description of the podcast, the episode, it just says Rick Rubin talks with Richard Feynman, a Nobel prize winning physicist.

Rei:

And not much detail about it.

Rei:

So I looked up, Hey, what's going on?

Rei:

Like, this is, is this AI?

Rei:

Is this, is this fake?

Rei:

So what he, what, how he made it was that he took an existing interview from the past and then edited it.

Rei:

And then he, Rick Rubin himself asks questions, right?

Rei:

And they inserted his voice.

Ana:

Does he have permission to do that from the estate?

Rei:

I, I, I would, so the first one was with Jim Morrison, the Dwarf Singer.

Rei:

And then the second one was this, you know, very famous internationally acclaimed physicist.

Ana:

I think it's an unbelievably smart concept.

Ana:

I think it's because it's like re contextualizing the material that we would not necessarily be drawn to.

Ana:

We maybe know it exists, but when would you listen to Jim Morrison's interview?

Ana:

Is

Rei:

he was really, really smart, clever, very beautiful.

Rei:

Like when I listened to it, and it like, I, I read Richard Feynman's book when I was in high school, my high school physics teacher recommended it.

Rei:

That I read his book and he was just a biographer.

Rei:

He wasn't about physics.

Rei:

It was just about life and super easy read.

Rei:

And, you know, this is like 30 years ago and he made an impression on me.

Rei:

And then I didn't really, I mean, you know, I'm not in physics or science, so I didn't really follow his work and then he passed away maybe 20 years ago.

Rei:

And I hadn't heard his name and it just happened to pop up on my podcast feed.

Rei:

And what I find, what I found so refreshing was that it wasn't using any fancy technology.

Rei:

It was using like, you know, editing and things like that, but it wasn't using like AI to recreate this person's voice or anything like that.

Rei:

I mean, audio is such an old medium and I was surprised.

Rei:

Maybe this isn't a new concept, but mixing something that exists in the past and then making it sound like as if it's a recent conversation that took place between two real people in case he wasn't.

Rei:

And, but still, he felt very authentic.

Rei:

He didn't feel like.

Rei:

Fake.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So I do, you know, if you're a Jim Morrison fan, definitely, if you happen to like physics or science or, you know, know who, Richard Feynman is, and they, he does talk about,

Ana:

hypothesis or something like that

Rei:

yeah, I know he, you know, he, he, yeah, his work is very

Ana:

Then yeah, yeah, no, it's coming back.

Ana:

Yeah.

Ana:

Yeah.

Ana:

Yeah, but you see what I like when you were I think it's Great example.

Ana:

I think we've seen that as you said, it's not a new, but I think it's amazing because I think that what culture is, it's all about curation, editing and remixing.

Ana:

So this is one of the, You know, one of the examples of how do you take noteworthy events, texts, materials from the past and re contextualize it.

Ana:

So I do think that that is how

Ana:

this, what creativity is in a remix now, really is.

Ana:

The creativity is how do you creatively combine, because there is creativity in how the questions that are asked and how it was edited.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

And if they edited it so that, the conversation feels very natural.

Rei:

You know, you hear the nodding of the interviewer, Rick Rubin and the nodding and the, the size and the, the little, Details of a conversation so that it's like one conversation between two people who just happened to exist in two different times in history.

Rei:

Yeah.

Rei:

So I, I definitely recommend, you know, this podcast has been around for quite a while for a couple of years now, but this episode just came out recently and I was mesmerized mesmerized.

Rei:

for being so into it.

Rei:

So that's my, that's my hit list of, you know, tiny thing, but it

Rei:

gave me, it gave me a lot of joy.

Rei:

Uh huh.

Rei:

And yeah, this is, this is what creativity culture is about.

Rei:

Yeah.

Ana:

definitely is, and I would encourage our listeners to think of other examples, because we are seeing that a lot in fashion, with the revival of archives, going back and, you know, just re contextualizing that.

Ana:

But I do think that we should see probably more of that, because there is a gold mine.

Ana:

of human creativity and if we can be creative by Again, three percent rule changing something just by three percent and packaging it as a new product There is a lot to be gained because the creativity is really in the dj in that remix

Rei:

the DJ, the craftsmanship of, you know, mixing the sound so that if sounds natural, those little details definitely matter.

Rei:

So I highly recommend it.

Ana:

Love the example.

Ana:

Yeah,

Ana:

cool.

Ana:

so

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

So.

Rei:

If I don't talk to you before you go to Paris, have a safe trip and talk to you in two weeks,

Ana:

That sounds like a plan

Rei:

Awesome.

Rei:

All right.

Rei:

Thanks

Ana:

Thank you so much, guys.

Ana:

This was great.

Ana:

Thank you.

Ana:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
How Brands Influence Culture
Hitmakers is an exploration of cultural influence and how brands create it. Every two weeks, Ana Andjelic, a brand executive, and Rei Inamoto, a creative entrepreneur, talk about brands that made a dent in culture - through their product, aesthetics, content, business model, or technology - and unpack how they did it.

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Rei Inamoto